Death, Drinks and Dynamics of Leadership

This is Confessions of a Pastor, episode 2, season five. Let's start off with a confession. Kara, I got to say, I've been a pastor for a long time. Yes. 28 years full-time, but confession. I deal with death all the time and it's still not normal. Yeah. Right. That's what I'm going to say. Okay. That's my confession. It's not normal. I mean, and it comes in waves at Journey Church. Yeah. It's like we can go 9 10 11 months, no deaths, and then all of a sudden 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 which is the season we're in right now. Yeah. And it it's like I just did a celebration of life on Saturday. I've got more to come. And I talked about on Sunday with the resurrection of Jesus. Yeah. Because so many thought his body was missing at first. The first time I saw a dead body, I don't remember my exact age. I was maybe five or six. Maybe

somewhere that young age. How old were you? You were thinking six, seven. [laughter] You can't say six without seven now. I don't know why. Yeah, I know. This all the young people got into the old people and they're like, "Stop talking 67." [laughter] So, how old were you when you first saw Well, okay. Confession olds. Like, I mean, it was two years ago. Yes. When your mom passed away was the first time that I've ever seen a a [clears throat] first time. It was the very first time. Yeah. I I haven't actually had a lot of death happen in my um circles or or immediate family. So, my grandparents have passed away, but I was um geographically pretty far from them. Yeah. Um so, it was the first time I've seen a a dead body and it was it was um something that has stuck with me for

sure. Yeah. Our oldest daughter was in the room, too. I don't know how it impacted her. Um I should ask her. Um but she was there too, which was probably her first one, too. I imagine. Yeah. Yeah. Wow. Okay. Let's ask those in the room with us today. Hannah, first time you saw a dead body. Oh, four years. Let's go. Four years ago. So, okay. So, it was later in life, too. All right. Who was it? My stepdad. Yeah. That was Randy. Yeah. Oh, wow. Kyle, when's the first time you saw a dead body? I would say I think it was seven years ago. Okay. Woman I knew personally. Thankfully, it was just Someone a biker got hit by a car on the street. Oh, crazy. Drove right by it. My mom was like, "Well, if you guys didn't hear that, Kyle said his first one was when he saw a biker get hit by a car." Okay. And

then Cali, when's the first time you saw a dead body? I think I was 10. 10. Okay. And it was my cousin who was a couple years younger than me. Wow. So, it was it was a child. Crazy. So, a child, somebody on hit by a car, and then just dying because of natural causes. Wow. I mean, it's all over the place. And the reality is death is inevitable. Yeah. But yet, it's still kind of weird. It's so It's surreal. It's It's like beyond what we can comprehend, I feel like. So, um it's always sensitive. It's It's traumatic. It is. Um even though, you know, uh particularly with with believers, you know, they're in a better place. you know, they're with Jesus. They're in glory. It's still there's just still something that's just so um traumatic about it on this side of heaven.

Well, it's the absence of something you love right now and is gone. Yeah. And so, it's it's it's actually similar to the text I'll be preaching next week about the resurrection of Jesus where Jesus finally reveals himself to Thomas, you know, more than eight or nine days after the resurrection. And he says, 'Well, you believe because you see, but how much greater is it for those who believe and do not see, right? And so to love someone that you you don't see, it it is can be kind of hard. One more confession regarding just my personal habits in life, my phone goes on sleep at 9:45 p.m. to 6:45 a.m., right? And partly because it's as a pastor and the influence we have in the community is over the last decade or so,

I've gotten so many calls in the middle of night from police officers. Yeah. Chaplain. And that's a part of the job. You're a pastor. You marry and you bury. Yeah. Uh but the reality is it hit me one time like just dealing with trauma one particular night. It's like you know what? If someone dies, they're still going to be dead in the morning. Yeah. You know, I don't mean to be callous. I don't mean to be cold, but I just mean to be the reality of getting interrupted. And it's not just that. I mean, I remember we had one gal who somehow got my cell phone number who would call me inebriated uh who kept getting arrested with DUIs. I was like, "Oh, please don't call me, you know." So, it's like just those boundaries as a pastor that you have to deal with death. But I will say this, one more confession about death and then we'll move on to some life today. All right? Come on, somebody. We're not just going to focus on death. But uh I I will say I actually

don't mind doing celebrations of life compared to weddings. I say it all the time. I joke about it. But the reality is like you get to confront just a reality. It death is inevitable. Let's deal with this. Let's let's bring this before God and bring this as the Holy Spirit to comfort us in this. Go to what the word of God says. Thankfully the Bible's not silent about death. Yeah. I mean over and over Jesus grieved. Jesus wept with the death of Lazarus. Uh we see death all throughout scriptures. We we see uh newborns in the case of King David. Uh we see spouses. I mean, we're going through Genesis, you know, and it's like Rachel died giving birth uh to Benjamin. I mean, there's death is in all sorts of seasons of life. I mean, we just heard it in this room with a

small group of us from child to uh midlife to elderly. You know, my mom died of dementia, Alzheimer's. So, we knew it was coming. It was inevitable. It kind of led up to it. Yeah. Uh but it's still it's not easy. It's weird. Yeah. And but it is a a part of what we go through in the cycle of life, right? Now, someone might be asking, well, why don't I like to do weddings? Come on, somebody. And that's just because marriage is hard. You know, marriage is one of those things that I just don't think we talk honest enough about how difficult it is. Yeah. And I think it's just like the the cultural norm of our day is to spend all this time, money, energy on this ceremony. It's just not realistic to what marriage is. Yeah. And so for me personally, it's just like it stresses me out. You got to say the right thing, do the right thing, look good, you know, wear it all down good.

Can't mess it up. You can't mess it up. A special day, right? I mean, I I did enjoy our daughters um just being present in that place. Um it didn't feel the same pressure. almost like, hey, I need to relax and be casual for myself officiating this. Yeah, the tears came at one point just just a drip and I turned it off quickly. If it [laughter] gets going, I'll just keep going. I cried. I definitely cried. But uh I will say that that's why I I actually find more pleasure doing a celebration of life memorial than I would uh a wedding, you know. So, it's a reality. Well, let's talk lifegiving care. Let's see. We're only what 3 weeks into the new year and uh there's already some mighty moves of God. There's so much happening around the world. Uh we prayed about it at pursuit night. Yeah.

You know, in Iran, uh we see it uh all over the continent of Africa, particularly with the Christian church with persecution and different aspects. But then even in our own nation, right? There's just this this constant unrest of of what's happening. But then bring it micro into our little world in central Oregon. I think God is up to something pretty serious. He's doing a work in the church right now that's just this this this sifting of exposing of of of what is church and making it about and uh I I think he's even working flushing that out at Journey Church like really making sure we're a church on mission making disciples and that includes reaching the lost you know discipling those who believe and you know replicating that over and over.

Yesterday, incredible Sunday. We had baptism Sunday. Yes. Let's go, somebody. Let's highlight just some some of what God's doing in a good way and then we can go backwards in the year. What was the highlight for you uh yesterday with baptisms? Come on. Oh, I got to be on the stage with you and give um just be there when they got up out of the water and put a towel around them and just I I just got to witness like the people that you baptized just looking at you as you're as you're speaking life over them and um and salvation and and calling and like it was really beautiful. I mean the people that I've I've the people that get baptized at journey and I don't have a lot of other contacts but that I've been in such close proximity to like it's it It has deep meaning. Like a lot of them are crying. Like I mean this is a real life decision that they're making. It's a marker.

We are not living in a a community that is we're not in the Bible belt. We're not in a place that is just expected of you. These are people that are choosing faith uh above the world and and it's real and it's tangible and their lives are being changed. So just the I would say being able to be so close to witness um the life change in people. Kids are always fun to to watch, you know, to to be involved with getting baptized. Um making that decision. Yeah. Yeah. Mustering up the courage to go in front of a lot of people. Totally. Which I imagine that's scary. All three of our kids got baptized at Journey. Um they were all 10 ironically kind of all each of them were 10 when they um took the step and all of them got baptized at Journey. So come on. Yeah. Well, you know, we we talk about uh funerals or memorials, celebration of life and and weddings. Let me tell you the one thing that never ever ever gets

old is baptisms. M I've done thousands in the that journey and it just it never ever ever ever gets old because each one is like this constant surprise of God's grace. And if if for those who are listening or watching uh and don't know the culture of Journey Church, we do spontaneous baptisms where we open it up to all those who have believed and not been baptized and particularly those who did not expect to get baptized for them to step forward on a freezing cold wintry day. right? And get wet and to leave in wet clothes. That's courageous. It is. That's a step of faith. And you look at the examples of baptism in the scriptures. Like people believed and they were baptized. I mean there was very little in between there.

No. There was no uh fourpart class that you have to take to understand the fundamentals of your faith before you get baptized. It's you've believed. Well, how about you get baptized and your family? Everybody getting wet, right? Yeah. So which so which is why I fully get behind the the way we do it is is because of that like biblical if yeah it's biblical it's not it's not not biblical and there were there was numerous uh baptisms like that yesterday. Yeah. I mean one gal she came up after everyone was done getting baptized. Yeah. We were singing the last course of the last song right before everyone's dismissed and she comes up and her name was Jill and she was apologetic. I'm so sorry. I was too late. I'm too late. I'm like, you're obviously not too late. Yeah.

You know, and I was like, I think God loves this. In fact, I just said, it's never too late with God. You know, just really affirming to her. And she was one of those. And I She's like, I didn't plan to do this today. I didn't plan to do this. She had this beautiful sweater on. She had jeans on. And here she is. She's She's choosing to say, I I obey Jesus above convenience, comfort. Absolutely. I haven't done [laughter] this. I have believed in Jesus. I'm going public with my faith. I'm letting the Lord know. And I just remembered, I wish I would have brought my phone in here, but I got a text from our uh the guy who helps with our facilities from Abel um last night. He said that he had invited his buddy to church yesterday. Okay. And he felt the this guy felt like he needed to get baptized, but he left, was convicted, turned around, and came back

and got baptized, I think, at the third service. What? Yeah, I know. I forgot to tell you. [laughter] Like, that's awesome. That's dope. I know. I didn't hear that story. There's a another I mean there's always amazing stories, but so I met a guy last week at church for the first time named Gary. And last week Gary was just like, "Oh, I'm so excited to be here. I'm 40 something days sober." Uh Sunday he was 61. So what's 61 - 7? Uh 54 54 days sober. So that's what he was the first time I met him. and he was just excited and he sat in the very back row on that Sunday and he brought his Bible and when I did an invitation to follow Jesus, he raised his hand even though I think he had already committed his life to Christ, but regardless, it was this I love Jesus. I'm following Jesus. He was just excited.

Yeah. And then we talked about baptism. He's one of those that was baptized as an infant. And he asked me, he's like, I've never been baptized myself. I'm sober. My life's changed. So this coming week, he he he runs up. Oh, he was so excited. He was the first baptism of the third service. So cute. So third service, 12:30 service, first guy up there and he just jumping up on stage and he's like, I'm 61 days sober today. And I'm like, this is great. And this guy's probably in his late 50s, early 60s. I mean, you I don't know, he may have had a rough life. Maybe he's 40s. But he he comes up and gets baptized, comes out of the water excited. Yeah. Well, someone from our security team uh uh gets me afterwards, the church is over and says, "Keith, I got to tell you the story." So, my friend shows up today who's a parole officer.

And she came because of that guy Gary that got baptized. That's his parole officer and he invited her to church and said, "I'm getting baptized. You need to come." She comes and then she tells Sarah, "I haven't been to church in over 20 years." Yeah. Wow. So his baptism brought his parole officer and who knows what God's doing in her life. I'm just like, man, God, you're you're doing such a good thing. So good. I mean, you can't make this stuff up. Who invites their PO to Yeah. [laughter] to church. I think we have a lot of that. That's journey church where you believe there's hope for everyone. Amen. It doesn't matter if you're the PO or if you're the one that just got out of prison or whatever the case might be. And we have a lot of those. I mean, I've talked to deputies, uh, police officers, POS who are like, "It's actually hard for me to go to church here

because I've arrested people, you know, and and I know what their crimes are, or they'll have feelings towards me, you know, there's there's all these interesting tensions that when you really think about the mess of getting all people from all different walks of life here, which is how church should be, right? I mean, amen. Let's talk about that." Yeah. I don't think that's I don't think it's as common as it should be in churches where this type of um you know, diversity. Yeah. Is happening. Like let's go. I mean, I I love it. I mean, we just look at our baptisms yesterday from the first service. You got two two men who came forward to be men, but you could just tell there's brokenness, too. From a a young father to uh you know, someone who's struggling with with whatever he's going through. You got all these

different characters and walks of life to young kids who grow up in good conservative Christian homes. And yeah, it's all over the place, right? And it's it's so funny when when people think about Journey Church, we we can go here for just a second. When when they think about Journey Church and they haven't been to Journey or if they come and they only get a glimpse of like a piece of it, you really can't define us in any traditional norms. So this past week or so there's someone commented on one of the forum groups on Facebook. Yeah. Asking about church. That happens pretty common. And it's also pretty common that Journey becomes the majority of names. People love their church here, you know. I mean, and when I say majority, it could be 50 to 75% like Journey Church, Journey Church. And then there's other churches peppered in

there. But you know, you you see people love their church here. So, someone made one of those remarks in a group that said, "Looking for a non-judgmental church in Bend." Now, this person later commented, "Hey, I think I may have caused some confusion with my question. I live in Portland. I'm moving to Ben and just want to be prepared because people had a heyday." And we're talking hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of comments. I mean, I'm not exaggerating. We're not talking dozens of comments. Hundreds, okay? We live in in the a culture that is everyone has a voice. So I think that's I think that's a kind way of saying it. Kara, I'm going to take it a little further. We live in a culture of keyboard warriors where people think they have the authority to judge to critique.

Well, that was kind of the irony in the whole thing is she's looking for a church that's non-judgmental. And people went that came out of that thread was like beyond it. It was a glimpse of the spirit of religion in our regionally that needs to be demolished and brought down. The competitiveness between churches, the judgment of churches. It was disgusting. But yet, as I I told you, you have to be comedic about it. You have to just you have to laugh. Yeah. Look what comedians do. They tell the truth, but they they they make a joke of life, right? There's truth in it. But there's there's always truth in it. There's truth about politics and families and and life struggles and and once you you laugh about it, it disarms an offense because it it was wild. I mean, let let's go through a few of them about Journey. I mean, one person

[laughter] you showed me and I I had already laughed about the same thing because someone said, uh, come to Journey Church. It's come as you are. Then someone else posted a picture of like four girls dressed drinking their pumpkin lattes that are cute and look identical white, you know. Yeah. They're like, "You have to look like this to come to J. You have to look like this if you come to Journey Church to our church." I mean, it's funny because you know what? We do have some cute, good-looking people at this church. So, if that's all they saw there, yep, that makes sense. But then another comment couple dozen comments later is, "Well, if you go to Journey Church, you got to be a felon." I [laughter] was like, "Okay." Oh, okay. You got to you got to be cute and drink your pumpkin latte and or a felon. You know, it's like it's all over the place. And I I didn't even think of

the irony of, you know, this person's asking for a non-judgmental church and the judgement and the judgment. But I I would say people do love uh [snorts] their home and family here and and they want others to be a part of it. And we're certainly not the church for all people. And uh what's interesting is I I went to that person's page. There's a few times I've seen people post like that and I'll DM them privately and say, "Hi, I'm a pastor. You know, let me tell you about Journey and very rarely does it go anywhere. It went one one place one time and it was the first time I did it. I've probably done it a dozen times since then and it's never gone anywhere." Um, but this person, I looked it up and I'm like, I'm not sure we're the church for you. Uh, just regarding her personal lifestyle, choices, beliefs, and I'm like, uh, we're probably going to offend you pretty quickly. Yeah, I think she was looking for a church

that was uh liberal in theology and thought and so forth. And I could be wrong and everyone needs Jesus. So, I mean, and the truth and so forth, but uh it is a it's it's an interesting uh world that we live in and we're reaching interesting people in a very interesting area. Yeah. I love continuing to hear stories and see stories, you know, like the ones we heard recently from Rooted, you know, just about uh going to the strip club the night before and then showing up to church for the first time. You know, it's like it's it's those kind of stories that make this church what it is. It's like the grace of Jesus will meet you wherever you are. Yeah. Whether you've been going to church every Sunday or Yeah. It's your first Sunday, right? Totally. It's just the reality.

And that's just a beautiful thing. It's the church is is diverse. It should be should be um open. We are not a country club or a like you said born no more. Like I think um you know when I I tried to I met Jesus very very young was didn't wasn't raised in a Christian home um and really attempted to try and um go to church and figure out like what does it mean to actually like be a Christian you know and I really had to I had to figure it out and on my own and um and I think about like places that I tried to plug into you know I think about um like college c my college campus I think it was just it always felt like a country to me and I always felt like I was on the I wasn't raised in it. I didn't have all the language. I didn't understand what they were saying.

Um and so I just I I love that we're a church that is so um just open and and not um I I personally think we're not judgmental. Um like we have welcome with o you know open arms all different people. Yeah. Um and and we don't assume we don't make assumptions about people that they know what we're talking about. Yeah. Um because it really Christianity can become a cultural something cultural rather than um transformational relational rather than a relationship with Jesus. It becomes a culture. Yeah. And that's that's like troubled waters. Like that's a scary place to be. I I agree. And I would just say there there's no one-sizefits-all when it comes to uh coming to faith in Jesus.

You know, some people come to faith early as a child, some people come later in life, some come through facts, some come through an experience and encounter. Uh but I will say there is something to be said about what you uh mentioned in your own life is that you you worked it out. You fleshed it out. You came to church. You asked questions. It reminds me of of of Jacob in the book of Genesis that wrestled with God, you know, like bless me. Bless me. I I I want more. It's it's it's this this striving saying I'm not okay with where I'm at. I met a young man uh after uh one of the services yesterday. It was after the 10:30 service and he's been wanting to meet me. Loves Journey and he's has just got some theological questions cuz he grew up with the theological understanding that women cannot be

pastors. And at Journey Church, as you are titled uh Pastor Kara, we we commission and ordain women to be pastors. So he's like, "Man, I want to serve here. I love this church, but I'm confused. Well, I I just I I need to reconcile this in my heart cuz and then he just was so apologetic. Like he's like, I don't want to be controversial. I'm not trying to be divisive. Like I just I actually want to know what the Bible says about women." which you kind of touched on that in a couple of the services in your message was God has a plan for women and I I I loved it because this guy's wrestling in a very humble way. The authority is the word of God. He wants to submit to the authority in the church, not just blindly or stupidly, but to come back to just the hospitality of the welcoming environment in Journey.

He said how much he loves Journey because he and his girlfriend were going to and he says I'll just leave it an unnamed church. Sure. He's like we went for four months. And he says not a single person engaged with us one time. He says that's not church. He said he said there was said there were greeters. The greeters didn't say hi to us. He says there was people at the door. They didn't say hi to us. And then when we were sitting they never engaged. Yeah. So he says literally after 4 months of going to this church, he actually brought it to the leadership and said, "Hey, I just want to make you aware that we're new here. We want to get connected." But not a single person has been like intentional to say hi or you know any any um effort to get to know somebody that they don't didn't know.

And he said, 'You know what the church did, Kara, is they threw it back on him and said, 'Well, you should make an effort to say hi to people, you know, and here he is like he's he's confused. He's actually like, I'm just trying to make you aware of your culture. And then what did they do? They shamed him and brought it back into his lab. So he said that was like the kicker. He's he's like he's like told his girlfriend, "We need to try a new church." So they said, "We're going to try journey." He said they were intentional and said, "Well, let's count how many times someone says hi to us." [laughter] Yeah. He said, "By the time they sat in their seat, the very first Sunday, by the time they sat at the seat, they counted 12 times [laughter] people said hi to them." 12 times. And he's like, "Grant, we've been coming now for months, and we don't count every time, but he's like, it it's not 12 every time, you know, but he's like, no matter what, no matter what, somebody

will look us in the eyes and say hello." I love that because that's so important. Yeah. cuz the the the opposite is just it's hard for anybody to get into as as this example and it's and then it becomes really a barrier like you know like oh I don't fit in I don't this is I don't belong here this is not for me right well then the irony is he's like well I feel more welcomed here than I ever have at any church ever but now I hear wait there's women pastors okay so that's so what do I do well I love this guy cuz he's not he didn't do what so many do and we talk about this all the time because it is a cultural reality today and if we're not careful all of us will have the same tendency and I don't think it's new to our generation. I think we see it in the Bible as well but we have a name for it now. We live in a cancel culture. Oh for sure.

So he could have the first time someone came up and said, "Hi, I'm Pastor Kara." Yeah. He could have said, "Oh, the theology is wrong here. I'm leaving and I'll probably go leave a review or tell other people about it." Absolutely. He didn't do that. Yeah. Well, he he decided to ask around and said, "Could I just get an understanding and he's been very humble?" And it's really cool because this guy and his brother, they're both manly men, you know, they're they're big, they're tall, they're both over six feet tall, muscular, just manly men. And it's so cool because they have this humility that they're like, "You know what? I just want to know the word of God more. I don't know it as well as I should. I want to lead better in my relationship. I got a girlfriend. He's like, "She's going to be my wife." You know, and I we we just had a really good and we talked about the roles of ministry similar to the roles of marriage.

There there's a mutual submission, but there are roles and there is a place where a man needs to be a man and take the role of a man, which is why we have male elders. And he's like, "Yeah, I'm just confused." I was like, "Well, let's talk through that." I I say, "There's some stuff in the Bible that I use the language that the Bible recap gal uses that's there's some descriptive and some prescriptive." He's like, "Well, how do you know if it's descriptive or prescriptive if Paul's telling Timothy, don't let a woman stand up and teach?" I said, "Well, let's just start with where Timothy is in Ephesus, where the main goddess is a sexual perverse, you know, uh, physical goddess of boobs all over with the worship of, you know, uh, temple cult prostitutes." Yeah. Who literally as like it's the the language of pornography today in Ephesus. And so Paul's simply saying

these women that are interested now in the church, we're not going to let them rule the way that they've ruled. So we have to understand culture context, you know, why is Paul doing what he's doing? Why is he saying what he's saying? And so forth. Then we have to look at the whole context of scripture. So we broke it down. But at the same time, like you mentioned yesterday, we talked about John chapter 20 and the encounter of the resurrected Jesus. The first person he reveals himself to. Yeah. is not only a woman, but it's a woman with a past, a scandalous past. I'm referring to Mary Magdalene, whom Luke says had seven demons cast out of her by Jesus. And of all the people on the planet, not only did he reveal himself to Mary Magdalene, is he sends her out with the message of the gospel.

Yeah. I mean, I know and you know this as well, theologians and those who have way stronger credentials than I do with a stronger vocabulary, they will try to in your own language uh use theological gymnastics to jump over this and say, "Well, that's an exception. It is the truth." Yeah. You want to avoid the fact that Jesus not only met with a woman, he commissioned her to go tell men. Let's go there. You go tell the men that I am risen. Yeah, that's scandalous. In a world where women were not consider considered, you know, uh credible as a witness. Yeah. In in the in world in the world and Jesus says, I see you the world doesn't see you as credible. I see you as credible.

And so I did address it just you know uh as as a micro uh part of the message because it is the truth of scripture. Yeah. We we can't avoid the fact. that Jesus, he he loves women. He met the woman at the well. She's like, "Why are you meeting with me? Why are you talking to me?" The disciples were confused about that. I mean, he constantly, even on the cross, he took care of his own mother. Uh, and this isn't, by the way, a woke theology of, "Hey, women, rise up and be greater than men." No, no. It's, as Paul says to the Galatians, there's neither Greek nor Jew, nor male nor female. There's an equality here, but there are roles, distinct roles. Absolutely. And and we've got to learn to function within those roles. Yeah. And and and seek the best. So it was I just I brought all of that up to say like there's it's it's good to wrestle. Yeah.

It's good to get into God's word. It's good to debate. It's probably the the DNA that I loved most about Charlie Kirk. I learned after his assassination and his murder that his main emphasis was if we don't debate Yeah. then then we'll get violent. Yeah. We will hold an offense. We'll get angry. I'll think I'm better than you or right. And then we'll do what our nation's doing right now, protest. Yeah. If there's no healthy dialogue or we see it in Iran, if the government's not willing to be like in America for the people, by the people, which is not the case in Iran, then what happens is the people revolt and and you get violent. Yeah. And I do think it's so healthy, not that we agree on everything or that we make, you know, uh make it happen. I just

don't think we need to uh shut or cancel each other out. Yeah, I completely agree. And I I would love to see a movement of that with the churches in Central Oregon. Yeah. I I do think it's a um it's an elephant in the room. I don't know if the camera picks up the elephant my bookshelf back there, but uh I keep elephants around because there's always something awkward that needs to be talked about. It's true. It's true. And sometimes we got to talk. Hey, our distinctives might be different. Yeah. how we pray, how we worship, but is this a theological issue that's going to stop us from advancing the kingdom in the same place? Yeah. And if we're going to get revival, we we got to start getting united. Yeah. And maybe this is the year for that. Yeah. I mean, I that's a a tough task. Well, it's something God can do. Amen. I'll tell you that. I agree.

Uh Kara, I I keep like burping up my drink. Uh, that's gross. Let's talk about what's in our cups. Oh, okay. Commercial break. What's in your cup? Well, uh, I I'm taking a radical, um, rabbit turn because, you know, I'm like trying to like stay cool and calm as we're doing this podcast, but I'm like, you know, when you eat or drink something right before you speak? Uh, have you ever done that? Probably. I know like the worship team, they're so they're so specific. They about what they eat and [laughter] drink because they don't want to happen what's happening to me right now. I don't even care. I'm just like I'd rather eat and be comfortable than you know uh than prevent myself and be perfect. So, uh in my drink I have mushroom coffee. You do? Which mean like mushrooms? I hate mushrooms. Why are you drinking mushroom coffee?

Cuz it's it's actually it's a um it's total marketing tool. It's not mushroom coffee. It's actually instant coffee. So, it is coffee and then but there's got to be some type of They put a mushroom powder in there that they claim all these health benefits and there flavor. No, no, no. It tastes just like coffee. It tastes like, you know, folders in your cup. You know the the the instant? That's what it tastes like. Tastes like folders. That's all it tastes like. But now you're burping up mushroom. Yeah. Well, no, no, no. No, no. It's it's just it I'm burping up folders. Um [laughter] it's got mushroom in it, but I don't actually taste the mushroom. Okay. Uh this brand is called Rise. They're like spending billions on marketing right now everywhere. Getting sent. Yeah, these are free samples that I keep getting and and I I keep trying it hoping I'll like it. But supposed to be good. Like you're supposed to be like look 10 years younger.

Yeah. Feel better. Cleans your guts and no more diseases or anything like this is this is the cure to the world is mushroom coffee. All right. What do you What's in your cup? Okay. Confessions. Confessions of pastor. Roth is in my cup. [laughter] Somebody turned me on to it on staff. Yeah, she's in this room. Callie did. Yep. Come on, somebody. And it's just like it feels nutritious and um it just satisfies all the things. So bone broth, that's what I did anybody guess on Confessions of a Pastor I was drinking mushrooms and she was [laughter] drinking bone broth. Come on, somebody. Uh we just want to keep it real and I I just I that was just an ADHD moment in that place because I'm like, "Hey, I'm trying to like talk normal, but at the same time,

I'm burping up my mushroom coffee." So [laughter] uh how about let's let's talk about like okay our 16th birthday is coming journey. Let's talk about let's let's talk about that for a minute. Well, what do you want to talk about it with it? Well, it's weird because it's been 16. We're getting old. Let's go. Yeah. And our I mean our kids were five, three, and 10 months when we started journey. And now we have one married, one in college, and a 16-year-old. And um it's crazy how fast time goes. It is all that God's done. There's a trend online on social media. It's the 10-year trend where you post a bunch of pictures of 2016 and you just kind of leave them there. You know, it's funny like I feel like people our age and older are just like I don't know what this is but I'm doing it, you know,

[laughter] like we're so awkward on social media, but there's this trend of where were you 10 years ago? And I would just say like a lot can happen in 10 years. I I had hair 10 years ago. True. I didn't really grow uh this white beard that I have 10 years ago. It's just weird because you're right. A lot can happen in 10 years. It's true. Well, and this is 16 years, so even more. Yeah. So, I as we approach this, I would say we have matured so much. Yeah. Uh we've become much more bold in who God made us to be. And I something I've always wanted to be is just a church on mission that that's willing to reach our community. I mean, I've always wanted revival, but I think God in the last 10 years has stripped us of anything that

was not of him. And I don't think he's done, but I think he's brought us to the place of like not only filled with the spirit, but I I've told you this how awesome it is to watch people operate in the gifts of the spirit. I told you that between first and second service when I saw Pastor Noah just going to war in prayer for someone that I didn't even know. But it was really really clear. I mean he was doing there was a whole group of people. There was elders involved, pastors involved and they were all surrounding this person and I was just like Kara look look what's happening here. You could just see church was happening. And I told you later when when they were praying for him, I just said, "It is so cool to watch people use their gifts." Amen.

That's the church. That is the church. Not just coming in, singing songs, hearing a message, and leaving, but actually people laying hands on one another, like giving prophetic words and words of knowledge. That happened yesterday. I mean, we could even go there for just a moment and in just a little bit, but might be a little bit of a touchy subject. Which one? I don't know. Just the the recent stuff that's come out with a church. Oh, I don't think we should be afraid. We can go there, too. This could be a 5 hour podcast, everybody. [laughter] We're talking about Bethl Church and Shawn Bols and all the stuff that's happening with scandals. I think because of that, I think I think people swing so far to the other side and reject prophetic words and words of knowledge altogether because it feels scary. Well, the devil loves to destroy what God created. That's what he constantly does. God does something good, he makes it good, and then here's what the devil

does is he comes in and he perverts it, right? He twists it, destroys it. And he's done that with everything. He did it with sex. He did it with marriage. He and he does it of course with spiritual gifts in the church as well. Totally. And so I don't ever want to be afraid of it, but I do also want to be aware and cautious as well. And so going into our 16th birthday, I just I personally think that we've come so far and matured in this area. I think people have canceled us over certain things like that and it's caused PTSD in some manners. But I would say God heals. He gives us vision. We don't define ourselves by the fear of man. It's something that's wrecked us a lot the last few years. We we we need to have the fear of God. Absolutely. And awe and fear of God. Even if it means doing hard things, saying hard things. Yeah. It's the truth. Making hard decisions.

That's that's why we're not afraid of tackling topics like women, serving in ministry or or any other topic for that matter. Gender, sexuality. We shouldn't. The church has done a disservice in that we just tell people what to do instead of disciple them in it. Amen. And and I'm looking forward to our 16th birthday will be a party because Jesus celebrated. Let's celebrate too. Totally. We're going to have JT here, Jonathan Trailer. Uh that will be rad. Those who have not been uh had an experience with him are going to love it cuz and I car I am seeing his influence right now. It's getting greater. It's growing. And I'm like I'm glad we've become friends with him because he's always had such a a gift Yeah. of leading worship and singing. But he also has an anointing on his life.

Totally. He has a humility where he loves Jesus because Jesus has changed his life. Yeah. Amen. And the vulnerabilities of his honesty of his relationship with his father here on earth has shaped his relationship with his father in heaven. And we just respect him for that at this church. So that's going to be crazy. And then we're going to have six and six that Sunday, which we've never done on our birthday, which should be dope, right? Uh I mean that's just like that preaching a powerful sermon in six minutes. You can say a lot in a little. That's true. And uh sometimes those are the most impactful message. Amen. And the theme and focus for this year is kingdom come. So you can't mess this up. If you do, then I don't know, someone's out of a job cuz [laughter] it's No pressure. This is going to be good. [gasps] And it's it's going to be great. And then what's really cool is we're going to do baptisms the week after Yeah.

our birthday. And we have a a security guard that called me. He's like, "Hey, when are we doing baptisms next? And I was like, March 5th, the week after our birthday. He's like, "Okay, I really felt like I needed to get baptized today." Oh. He's in it. Well, he's in his like, "Oh, I know who he's in his, you know, security gear and everything." And uh he's like, "My six-year-old girl just received Jesus Christ." And she's really, she really believes in Jesus. And he's like, "I think I'm going to explain to her next you need to get baptized because her dad's never gotten baptized. And maybe we can get baptized together." Oh, and he's like, "But if she doesn't get baptized, I'm still going to get baptized." [laughter] So, I was like, "That's that's cool. That's awesome." You know, so, uh, where was I going with that? Oh, her birthday. I was just celebrating. Normally, we do baptisms on

our birthday, but I think it's going to be too much, you know, like like just trying to do lots of baptisms. I think February is going to be just a really powerful month as we wrap up John and and we we really lean towards the kingdom of God. So, those are my thoughts on the 16th birthday. Tell tell me how you feel about staying so long in the book of John. Oh, it was the best thing ever. It's by far like the best, if I can call it a series, even though it's like we all we did was study the book of John. Yeah. I have no regrets, Kara. Uh I mean, I'm kind of rushing through it now cuz I'm trying to get to the end. Even though we probably don't need to. I really felt like it's given me permission just not to rush the text. Yeah. And there's a lot of churches that do it and it's easy to kind of criticize on the outside, you know, what people are doing and and why. You know, I saw

one church recently that's um going through the entire Bible in three years. So that's they just launched in January a three-year journey through the whole Bible like like preaching through it. Yeah. Preaching through the whole Bible. Um it's the church we tried to go to in New York. Oh, [laughter] okay. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So, um, and then, uh, I I know a lot of Calvary chapels, they just go book by book, and they'll they'll be in a book for, you know, decades, but, uh, I'm not trying to emulate or copy anyone. But when we got into the book of John, there was just so much. Yeah. And and to go slowly through it. It's like the the Holy Spirit weaved in exactly where we were in the book, what was going on in our church, in people's lives, what was happening in the world, and he's still doing it. I mean, it's like here we launching our vision for 2026. Kingdom come. And how

do we start this year? Jesus talking to Pilate saying, "My kingdom is not from this world." I'm like, "Holy Spirit, set the stage for the whole thing." God knows what he when we get into God's word. There's never regrets. And so, we don't have to try hard. I I don't want to criticize churches that just do uh themes or or series on subjects, but for us personally, we find that just getting into God's word always guides us and always brings life. And so for me, Kara, I've really enjoyed this. But now tell me your perspective cuz I No, I feel the same. [laughter] I feel the same. I've thoroughly enjoyed it. Um, I was going to ask you what like if you could just like um charge the church with like one thing like out of the book of John, like what would be your um your one thing that's like and I know that's a that's probably a really hard question.

No, I I I I could tell you what instantly comes to my mind and actually Pastor Brandon's going to preach it in a few weeks. Uh, and it's it's the last two verses of John 20. Uh, and it's it's really kind of the thesis for the entire book. And I believe it is what it is because it is the main theme of the book because Jesus supports it in his teaching. It's it's one word. You want to guess what the one word is? Anybody want to guess in here? Shout it out if you go. That's close, but no. What? Nope. That's life was not life is not go. Come on. What? Two more guesses. I don't know. One word. One word. Come on, somebody. Love. Oh, so close. But maybe we could summarize the book of John in love. Any any guess, Cali? [laughter] Oh, let's go. Preach.

Preach. Preach. Oh, it's believe. Okay. Believe. Believe. Cuz you think of John 3:16. Whoever believes. Yeah. You think of John 11, I'm the resurrection and life. Whoever believes. And John says this. Now Jesus did many other signs in the presence of the disciples which are not written in this book. But these are written so that you may, everybody shout it out. Believe. that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name. So I think the theme of the book of John is believe in Jesus. Believe in Jesus. Believe in Jesus. So when someone's like curious about Jesus, when someone's like, I don't know how to read the Bible. I've never read the Bible. I don't know where to start. A great place to start is John. Start with John because from the beginning to the end, the theme, the reason John wrote this is that you would believe in Jesus. He didn't include

every miracle of Jesus, but he included enough that you'd believe in him. He didn't include every detail, but he included enough so that you would believe in him. You know, I mean, as you read this book, the whole theme is you can you should believe in Jesus. And when you believe, it's not just believing about something, you're you're believing kingdom. Like, it it shapes and changes who you are. I I I've been just rocked recently that we just we teach too much about Jesus, but we're not believing the ways of Jesus. And when we do, we're we enter into his ways. Yeah. And it really shapes who we are. So this book has shaped me. Um so that's what I would say is uh the main theme in this book is believe. Believe the promises of the Old Testament. Yeah. They're true in Jesus. Believe signs and wonders. They're true.

They're in Jesus. You know, like I believe in miracles because I believe the God of this Bible. Yeah. I believe he still does those things today. And and we see them and and it's just like in the Bible. It's real. Sometimes they're instant. Sometimes there's a challenge. Even as we come to the conclusion, you watch the resurrection. It's not a clean story. Yeah. The disciples don't even realize he's resurrected. And he is. You know, he shows up and Thomas isn't there. And then he's resentful and bitter. He's got all this church hurt. You know, like you guys say Jesus shows up, I'm not going to believe. You know, it's like those things still exist today. People get so offended over the littlest things. And I'm like, wow, maybe God didn't want you to. Maybe, you know, God's ways are so unique that I I saw the greatest uh like

[laughter] theological teaching recently on Instagram. Uh and it was about uh Kanye West. Uh yay. how he's [laughter] uh he simply has denounced his faith. Oh uh because in Jesus because he said when he was struggling with addiction and pornography, he said he had a serious serious addiction to pornography. And he said Jesus Christ delivered him from pornography. And then when he was going through marital struggles, he prayed that he would stay with Kim, that he God would restore his marriage. And I'm paraphrasing all this. And God didn't do it. M. So he's like, "If God didn't do it, why would I do this? If God didn't do what I wanted him to do." Exactly. And so here's the theological teaching. If the father doesn't give you what you asked for, is is he no longer a father? Because what you're really asking for is like a genie in a bottle.

You're asking, you're telling God what to do, not inviting God that he could work through your struggles. Isn't the mystery Isn't that the mystery of our faith and the mystery of God is that we will never fully understand the side of heaven. Um certain aspects of what he allows, what he Yeah. Um why things happen like but but he is God through it all. He's God through the famine. He's God through through the feast. He's God through the struggle. He's a good God and he is a God of abundance. He's God of provision. Come on. Um he has grace and truth. Even if it doesn't look exactly like what we want it to or or think it should, he is always faithful. Yes. Yes. Why would I What was I talking about? Yay. Uh, [laughter] you asked me some question. I was like,

"Ooh, ooh, let me tell you something." Yeah. Theology from Instagram. No, that's not what it was. We're talking about the book of John. Nope. No, that's not what it was either. Okay. We were going somewhere else just about where we Does anybody remember? No. We're all lost here. That That's what happens when you get a bunch of creatives in the room. [laughter] Start talking about everything and what are we even talking about? But I yeah to come back to what that is uh prayer and this year and the kingdom and the book of John. Oh getting people to read the book of John and and surrendering to the ways of Jesus. I just think that's it's a key. Well, you said he had denounces faith. So yes. Well, and God willing, we we'd pray though that when someone returns back like the prodical son, they come too and

realize actually what I did believe is true. And so it's it's really almost like they didn't lose their faith. They just had to make it more genuine. They had to get a little messy first. You got to lose something before you realize what you have. Yeah. I mean, every week when I do an altar call or an invitation to Jesus is it's not only just for someone to believe for the first time. It's also, hey, you know, here's the reality. Some of you need to believe again. Like, yeah, it's it's it was there. Yeah. But how's that going for you? You're in the pig slop. Let's let's come home. Yeah. Let's get a new identity. Father, he's going to throw a party when we come home. Yeah. And and lest anyone think that that's not for you, it's for all of us. Yeah. You know, and I told you recently like I just feel like God's given me a download of humility, you know, that when you really get to

see a a dependence and a need for God, he becomes God. And the more we do that with our lives, I think we'll become better um Christians, if I could say that, like better followers of Jesus or maybe disciple. How about that? We'll be better disciples. We'll be better spouses. We'll be better parents. And and ultimately, we will contribute better to this world when we have the humility that we need a dependence on God. Yeah. The moment we think we don't need God. Oh, yeah. I think that's like the yay issue or even the world's issue. Yeah. We take matters into our own hands. Yeah. And I just historically speaking, that doesn't work. I've done it. I see it in this world. I mean, look at all these protesters. I try and tell ICE, get out of here. Like, do you does that is that really the most effective means?

We could even go there, but I'm not even sure. I mean, there's I would just say this, it doesn't seem to be the most effective matter. I think the church needs to rise up and be the church and and we need to do kingdom matters and we need to be a praying people. If our priority is the kingdom, we will act out in the ways that the early church did. Yeah. And how did the spirit of God pour out upon the church? Through prayer. Yeah. Through unity. And God didn't need a lot, by the way, to do a lot, but he did need people who are genuinely seeking the Lord. Yeah. And And I I think that's right now where we need to raise up as a church. Yeah. Capital C. Yep. You know, not not joining on either side of the pendulum saying I'm on this side or I'm on this side, but at the end of the day, totally bring in the force of the kingdom into this world.

Yeah. Amen. Well, uh before we leave today, we did bring up the controversy of uh prophetic words and words of knowledge and um and I I say controversy in the sense that there have been many in the charismatic world who have abused uh the spiritual gifts and emotions through trickery, through um just deceit and many other different ways. And I think you and I come from unique backgrounds in that we didn't grow up with a a a church tradition. Yeah. Uh we didn't grow up Baptist or charismatic, you know, uh reformed or, you know, um we grew up nothing or Yeah. Uh exactly. And so, uh we ended up in pockets of churches that started to shape us. Yes. you know,

uh we were part of a denomination that was strongly Wesleyan, you know, uh brethren roots of this kind of this uh conservative uh holiness movement. Yeah. Uh but so deeply in scripture that they kind of lost sight of being culturally relevant, you know, over a long period of time. Uh but then like we were part of pretty safe churches, evangelical churches that didn't go too hard, you know, they these would be the churches that say, "Well, we believe in the Holy Spirit, but with the seat belts." Yeah. It's like, who are you to define like where God is safe or not safe? You know, sometimes God will take you in the most wild ways to wild places like the wind as Jesus says in John 3. So, here we are trying to discover who we are distinctively according to scripture. And it's like I think if we could both say, we'd be like, we're just what the Bible says. But more recently,

uh, a church that's had influence on the the global charismatic world, Bethl church, which has been so controversial because some people love Bethl. We've had people in this church love Bethl. They will go down to Reading, California just to go to that church. They love it. They love the music. They love the experience, the encounter. But then we've had people at this church like literally with rage hate Bethl. I mean hate it. I've had people put books in front of me and say here's why Bethl is wrong. I'm like do you think I I have the time and energy to read a book about why a church is wrong. You know we're not affiliated with Bethl. We're not connected to Bethl. We we've never condoned Bethl. You know there's been moments we've sung Bethl

songs. You know and there might be controversy around that but I don't even want to get into that. based upon where I'm going with this is it has been exposed recently. Mike Winger did a very long documented uh podcast, VO podcast, whatever you want to call it, uh YouTube video on exposing the skeletons in Bethl's closets. I think that's I believe that's the name of it. You didn't watch it, but I've told you a lot about it. And then last night, we watched Bethl respond to it finally. And I would told you I was like they had to. I mean they had to do it. Uh did you guys anybody in this room watch any of what I'm talking about Mike Winger's video? Did you watch the whole thing? Hannah, she's shaking her head. Yes. Just bits and pieces. Just bits and pieces. Okay. Okay. Did either of you guys, Kyle or Cali? Just like recaps.

Oh, just recaps. Okay. Uh I I watch it's very very long. It's over five hours. I think it's like 5 hours and 50 minutes or 5 hours and 30. It's It's very very long. And um it's long because he documents this in proof. You know, some people want to be like, well, he he didn't do a great job with journalism. To me, he like it is journalistic and that he showed text messages that support this text messages or and it was specifically about one person, right? Shawn Bulls. Sean Bulls. Yeah. But the purpose of the video is there have been many people over the last probably 10 years who have covered up sin, who have covered up what he's done very uh poorly, both false prophetic

words and words of knowledge. that he's a false prophet and his sexual uh sin in his uh private life and his ministry with very specifically the people he hires. He hires young men, athletic men, and has taken advantage of many men over a long period of time. Now, I am supporting the accusations of what I've seen. I've not talked to these witnesses and so forth, but this is just what we did. And then last night we we watched Bethl uh finally respond because it was I've told you over the week I was like this is bad. This is not I this I mean I've I've seen these things many time but I do believe right now over the last decade God has been exposing the sin that's already there and it's not just in Shawn Bulls which he is exposed and Bethl admitted it.

They said we should have exposed him earlier and we did not. And they had their reasons. Call them excuses or whatever you want to do. They were grievious. They were weeping. Yeah. Uh they they said they were repentant. I'm not going to actually make my own conclusions there. But it is clear they're acknowledging. He was in sin. Yeah. And we did not call him out from the platform. And what that did though, your silence actually Yeah. condone or endorsed, right? you know, and I I they actually would say one of the reasons they didn't want to expose him as to not hurt the charismatic church. And Mike Winger's whole point is he's like, I believe in the gifts of the spirit. He's like, that actually does a disservice to the church to have false prophets. That actually hurts the church. Totally.

If we don't say there are people that abuse this, people get abused and the devil uses that trauma to perpetuate church hurt and division and so forth. So I I do think we need to expose these things. Uh what Journey's role is in that like I don't think we have to expose Shawn Bol. I mean we've never endorsed or no publicly professed it. I do think what we need to do is teach the whole scriptures. Yeah. All of what God says in terms of how he operates so that people can use their gifts for the glory of God. Amen. Amen. But there certainly is healing that needs to take place. Yeah. uh in in the church. Yeah. You know, and there there's healing needs takes place here. It's why people have views of women in ministry. It's it's like similar similar. It's the polarizing topics.

Yeah. That the devil, I think, just wants to divide the church over. Yeah. You know, do these still exist today? Well, if spiritual gifts still exist today, then the church needs to be edified and operated in healthy using the gift God gave us. The very implication of that word gift is something God gave us. Yeah. And Sha Shambol, he um abused that. Yeah. I mean, it's supposed to be for the edification of the body, right? And he did. And I mean, that's that's where that's why churches swing so far to the other side is is using examples, you know, like like false prophets and why it's so important as leadership in the church to protect the flock. Like, it's really important to protect the flock. Yes. And I'm disappointed that they didn't earlier. There was a lot of um fallout, you know, from the situation that perhaps could have been protected that are now called victims.

Yeah. Really difficult stories of real people who are really having to deal with daily how the church caused harm and not blessing. And unfortunately, people have problems. Every church will cause different type of for sure dysfunctions. But but there are some that are grave and not dealt with. And I think that only perpetuates a problem. Yeah. When when you don't deal with sin. Absolutely. It's the difference of cancer being stage one, two, three, or four. Stage one, it is cancer. And it can eventually kill you, but it doesn't seem that bad. You can't see. It doesn't impact you. It's not really impacting your body. But you let cancer get to stage four and fatal. Yeah. And that's where we see churches like uh Mars Hill and Hill Song and many others. It's like almost overnight

like these big powerful the one thing that if it is Confessions of a Pastor so I'll just confess one thing that bothered me last night is they kept referring to Bethl as a movement as a movement. As a movement I I told you this several times like they're not going to scripture and they're not referring to the body of Christ, the bride. Like we are the bride. We're meant to be spotless. We're meant to have our lamps full of oil. Like, we need to go to the Bible and say, "What does Jesus want for his church, not what do we want? Not not what not what we think the world needs to benefit from us." And that's just my critique of those senior leaders. I actually, full disclosure, I did not like the way that they did it. Um, I'm witnessing today many people, maybe thousands of people supporting them, saying, "Well done. I'm

so happy. Yes, you did it." Well, and I think it was the overarching picture of they repented, they apologized, they they um, you know, took ownership of of their part in it. So, I think probably that's the bigger picture there. Yeah. I just I think uh to our point about the victims, if we can call them victims, there it appeared that it was just it was brought out because it had to be. Oh, I agree. And instead of like really getting into the mess of it Yep. Uh it was like, "All right, let's acknowledge this and uh we're not going to do this again, guys. We'll make better policies and let's move on." And uh and I mean, you could just acknowledge leadership is hard. Oh, it's so hard. Period. At the end, leadership is hard in any um area and pastoring hard. And then you add church to it and it just becomes even that much more difficult because it's family, it's relational, it's spiritual,

um it's your life, you know. So church leadership is hard. So, you know, we could sit back and critique, people critique us like, "Hey, easy to critique. Um, but I think the the the takeaway is, you know, to um I think it goes back to what we had to wrestle with a few years ago. Do we fear man or do we fear God? Come on, Carrie. And if we fear God above man, what man's going to think. Yeah. Um, it that will never we will never regret it. It does not make it easy. No. You have to make hard decisions. You have to have hard conversations. And it's hard. That's the key right there. Yeah. I I would you you said it way more eloquently than I could. Uh because we we have too many Monday morning quarterbacks in the world. Everybody trying to tell church leaders what to do, you know? And I my knee-jerk when I first saw that video from Mike Winger

was, "Oh, come on." Like not another like here's what's wrong with the church. Here's what's wrong with the church. But then actually when you get into the nitty-gritty, it was like, "Oh, he's actually he's trying to publicly call out something that it couldn't get any traction with some of the people who had no voice. So, he used his voice and so it was not your normal like here's what's wrong with the church, here's what's wrong with the church cuz there are way too many of those people doing what you're describing instead of acknowledging like yeah, ministry is hard. And I just I think that's a a wonderful way for us to even just acknowledge today like that's why we started this podcast. It's like the process of us confessing like we don't always get it right. And when we get it wrong, we too, we do want to uh confess, repent and not repeat the

same problems. But more importantly, we want to honor God in the fear of the Lord where what we do is is not just going through the motions. And that that is hard because church comes every week and people have expectations of what the American church is. And uh but we we ultimately want to humble ourselves before the Lord and say, "God, if there's something that's not of you, get it out." Yeah. Amen. If there's something you want in us that's not in us, put it in. Yeah. You know, and and we're going to go where you tell us to go. Yeah. Absolutely. And I think we we both arrived at that place a few years ago. Not that it's perfect at all. Yeah. But it's it's just a place of being willing to open our hands and say, "God, what do you want?" And I I would I I would even say like we

didn't arrive at that place. We started our journey of fearing God. And I think we're just like more and more discovering like there's we're not there. There's so much more to know of God. And I think about the scripture in Proverbs, I think is the fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom. And I I've wrestled with that verse a lot. Like like what does that actually mean? You know, but but then the more you walk in it. Yeah. The more you're like, "Oh, I can I can see why wisdom comes from having an awe and a reverence for God and his ways." Yes. Um above the ways of man. Yes. Wow, Kara. I think that's a a wonderful way even just for us to maybe wrap up our time as we just really consider like what's worth living for the Lord.

And it it's not just this cliche. Um you know, we're going to go live for the Lord. It's actually giving God everything, having an awe of him, a reverence, and then going full in. And as we're entering into this year, uh I pray that we would look back and say our decisions were led by God. As we celebrate 16 years of God's faithfulness, that we would expect more as the scriptures teach us that he is a God of abundance. As you said, he's not a God of limitations. He's able to do exceedingly abundantly, immeasurably more than than we could ask or even think. Yeah. I mean, if if we could be filled to the full knowledge of God, why why wouldn't we want more? like why wouldn't we want to know the depth of God's love, the height, the the width, the breadth. And so it's in that place that that I just think this is a spur one another on moment that church let let's point each

other to the person Jesus Christ. Let let's pray for one another. Let let's let's live out the ways of the kingdom this year and and let's just starts today. And so maybe I can pray and you got any final thoughts? Well, your your final word was a good one. So let's pray. Lord, we thank you for this time today in Jesus name that we just get to process what you're doing at least locally through Journey Church in Bend, Oregon. But we believe you're not done. It expands. We're believing for revival in our region that Central Oregon shall be saved. But I declare it over our nation. America shall be saved because God, you're not finished yet. And revival will happen when we fully trust in you and you receive our prayers and you pour out your spirit on this land. So God, we're asking for more for such a time as this. We look forward to you coming, Lord. So may may we your church be ready. And I just say get us ready, God. And so thank you for this conversation today. We leave it to you.

And for all those who have listened today, I pray that they'd not only be blessed by this time, but God, you would do it even more, exceedingly more in their lives. I ask this in Jesus name. Amen. Amen. Well, God bless you. I'll see you next time on Confessions of a Pastor.