About this conversation
Confessions of a Pastor opens with Pastor Keith Kirkpatrick and Pastor Kara Kirkpatrick naming the topic plainly: forgiveness, the "F word" they say Jesus taught and put into practice and that every believer needs. They connect it to the previous Sunday's message on Matthew 18:21-35, the parable of the unforgiving servant, and to 1 John 4:20, which says that anyone who claims to love God while hating a brother is a liar.
A large part of the conversation wrestles with the difference between forgiveness and reconciliation. Keith and Kara say a person can forgive without being reconciled, naming cases where reconciliation is not possible. They walk through Matthew 18's steps for addressing sin between believers and two readings of treating an unrepentant person as a pagan and tax collector, and they discuss Luke 17's teaching about forgiving a brother who repents repeatedly in a day.
Keith and Kara reflect on the culture of cancelling, slandering, and gossiping in the church rather than sitting across the table with an offended brother or sister, and they describe Sunday as a first step in an ongoing conversation about discipleship. They also talk about what self-reflection looks like in practice.
The back half turns toward revival and the kingdom of God. Keith says he longs for a Great Awakening-scale movement, then confesses that he is tempted to measure God's work by size and emotion rather than conviction and repentance. They discuss waiting, fruit that takes years, and the parables' repeated theme of a coming harvest and judgment, holding God's love and judgment together. The episode closes with a pastoral prayer asking God to awaken the church, release offenses, and bring kingdom revival to their region.
The conversation,
in their words.
Transcript from the recording’s captions. Select any timestamp to hear the original audio.
This is Confessions of a Pastor. We are Pastor Keith and Pastor Kara. And I got to tell you, we got an episode today that will impact every single one of us. And when I say episode, we don't even know what we're going to say outside of we know that today's topic is for all of us because we are talking about the F-word, everyone. Come on, somebody. The F-word is something that Jesus taught about put it into practice and we need to as well. Yes. Is that right, Kara? It is. It's a hard one, though. Come on. is it but it is one that every one of us needs because if we don't put this into practice, it will forfeit the kingdom of God. Yes, it it will hinder every promise that God has given us. That so many of us think that we can live without it, but we're we're falling just short of the kingdom. And for clarity today, we're talking about forgiveness. Let's go, somebody. Let's go.
Hey, before we get there, uh Kara, we had a wild day yesterday. I know I've got a holy hangover from Sunday. Uh, how about you? I definitely do. Yeah. Yes. You're feeling it. So, we had a a great Sunday. Uh, but it was intense. I mean, you even made a comment to me. What did you say at home? Remind me. I don't know. I said lots of things. Well, something along the lines of yesterday's message hit differently. Oh. Oh, I thought you were talking about how long yesterday was, but yes, it did. Well, yeah. And why did it hit differently? Well, because it this wasn't like a feel-good type of message. Yeah. It wasn't a leave inspired, I'm ready to conquer the world. It was a a reflective conviction. Yes.
That if we harbor bitterness and offense in our heart, we are creating a block um in in the um in the kingdom in the kingdom coming in our lives. Yeah. in being um a disciple truly is um the when we harbor offenses and bitterness and do not forgive it. I mean like I actually what I said in this morning we were talking about it was the verse that you just dropped towards the end of your message out of first John which was if you say you love God and you hate your brother Mhm. you're a liar. Yeah. That's intense. You know what's interesting? That's no joke about that verse, Kara, is I think that's 1 John 4:20. And you know what the date is today? Come on, somebody. It is 4:20. It is 420 with a redeem 420.
The world wants to celebrate cannabis, right? We're celebrating forgiveness. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I will tell you that uh I had someone write me yesterday on my on my uh on my Facebook wall right before all three Sunday services and says, "Pastor Keith, what you're calling evil is actually used for good." And he was referring about cannabis. And I just wrote the brother and I said, "I love you." Yeah. But unfortunately, you have taken the things of this world and made it an idol. Yeah. Including what Paul said to the Romans. You have taken the things of this world and you've worshiped it. Yes. Instead of the one that can heal you. Yes. Amen. The one that Isaiah prophesied about that by his wounds we are healed. So if you're finding healing in some substance Yes.
which today is April 20th. I don't know when you're going to listen to this, but it's 4:20 and much of the world is is celebrating something that they think will give them satisfaction. So uh 1 John 4:20. Here we go. Ready for this? I am give it to if anyone says I love God and many Christians say that. We sing songs, we listen to songs, we read devotionals. I love God. If anyone says I love God and hates his brother, he is a liar. Okay, let's just take that verse. That's intense. Yeah. Yeah. If we just take that at face value Yeah. Which how else would we take it? Mhm. It's not like you said, this is not theory. Yeah. It's not theoretical. Yeah.
What do we do with that? That like if if we have sensitive hearts to the Holy Spirit and what it really looks like to be a disciple of Jesus and to live in this world as ambassadors of the kingdom, we have to take that seriously. Well, Kara, I I think we we're about to uh open up Pandora's box because, you know, the first thing I said to this person that posted on my wall yesterday was, "I love you, brother." Yeah. I I'm going to say this in love. Yes. But I think the hardest thing that I've done as a pastor is not say the truth to people when they needed the truth. And I'm specifically speaking because I I shared a lot of verses yesterday that were really hard that the reality is the church as a whole, and I'm talking about capital C, but this comes down to the
micro of Journey Church, comes down to the micro of my life. uh the church as a whole does not rebuke one another in love with with God's word that when someone is in sin, we should rebuke them even if it if it's you know we think of sin as like I I watched probably over a dozen sermons last week on on the text that I preached which for the listeners the text that was preached on Sunday was Matthew 18 21-35 it's Peter asking Jesus how many times should I forgive my brother seven times and Jesus says says no 77 times or in the New King James and King James version 70* 7 you know and then he goes on to tell the parable about a king with a servant who owes this unfathomable debt whom he forgives and sets free and doesn't
forgive his brother and chokes him puts him in prison of course eventually that person who was forgiven ends back up in prison that was the text y so I watched probably a dozen sermons on that and one pastor it was one of the last sermons I watched uh One pastor started the sermon off with a a box of cigarettes and he he's doing the cigarette thing. We know taps it, opens up the plastic wrapper of the cigarettes, takes off the plastic, opens up the box, takes out a cigarette. This is on the platform at the beginning of the sermon, puts a cigarette in his mouth, gets out a lighter, and then lights the cigarette on the stage. And he's like, "Some of y'all are thinking to yourselves, you can't do that. You're the pastor, the preacher, you're in church. you can't smoke a cigarette in church. And he's like, "You have a problem with this because yeah, you're
right. You're not supposed to smoke in church." Yeah. You know, you're not supposed to do these things. But the reality is we say we can't do this. Yeah. We tolerate things like unforgiveness. 100%. You come in with unforgiveness and you leave with unforgiveness. But do you know God probably cares more about your unforgiven heart than you smoking at church? I was like, bam, that was a good illustration. I almost stole it, but then I was like, I've actually never smoked a cigarette. So I was like not be all choking in church which yesterday I was choking in church but truth. Uh yeah. So it this is a topic I think we got to really talk about because as we do speak of revival and we do pray for a great awakening. Yes. Which we can even talk about that movie we saw a great awakening which was awesome about George Whitfield in the earliest days of America when we were
just 13 colonies long before we were one nation under God. There was a great awakening. I believe God is stirring something new today. Yes. But it won't happen without converted hearts. Yes. That understand the word of God is real. In fact, when we watched that movie last week, I think that's what we walked away with at least how they interpreted George Whitfield so well, this great preacher revivalist is he preached the word of God with power and authority. And it was awesome. Yeah. you know, is to see when you preach God's word there there's a response. When there's the spirit of God and the word of God, there's a response. Yes. And I think yesterday, Kara, that was my prayer going into Sunday was that there would be a response.
Yeah. I mean, I I do think there was a response. I mean, even just the little we haven't had story time yet in in staff meeting, but to hear, you know, um a bigger response, but definitely there were a few people specifically that um that we communicated with and interacted with that apologized for things actually and released some u offenses that probably we didn't even know about. Um well, and it was really good that I mean, I said it at one of the three services yesterday. I have offended probably in my lifetime hundreds if not thousands of people and I would say the majority of those I have offended I didn't even know I offended. And the the the um one of the biggest cancers of the church and well the culture but I'll just put it on the church because we should we should live
the ways of Jesus is that we are unwilling to sit across the table from somebody that's offended us and and have a real conversation and work through something to get to reconciliation. It's so much it's it's so cultural and it's so much easier. Well, we think it's easier. It's not in the long run to cancel somebody, to slander somebody behind their back, to gossip about them. And that I I just think it's it's time for the church to raise up and say no more. We're not going to live like that anymore. The world doesn't want what we have because of because of the fruit that we're producing. It's not healthy fruit. Wow. So, I think this was a the first step in a very big conversation with the church that says there's there's more to this disciplehip than what we think.
Mhm. That that's a good word. I mean, what's funny about what you're saying in in ironic way, not a a humorous way, but just like the irony is when I hear you say we're unwilling to sit across the table, when an offense has been caused, we are willing to sit across the table. And I'm generalizing just even recent experiences we've had and and have people brothers and sisters talk about brothers and sisters about what they've done wrong, what's wrong with them, why this is wrong, and they're not in the table with them. Exactly. And this has been a burden of my heart for the church is that we would quit gossiping talking about other people when they aren't in the room. We That's not hard for Christians to do. In fact, I I confessed it yesterday. Like I'm I see
so many Christians speak negative on social media. So many about the president, about the governor, about just the world, about people. And I I told you this morning, it was a deep conviction for my own heart because I'm not asking the church to repent of anything that I don't think the Lord's not causing me to repent of because the truth is what I've done with most of those people is I don't want to see them because they're so toxic and negative. So just for the reality is I unfollow them. Yeah. And I stay their friends, you know. So I won't ever see them in my feed again, but they won't know that I did that because I've sure learned the hard way there where I've unfollowed people and later on they're like, "Did you unfollow me?" It's like unfriend whatever that is called.
So true. All that to say is I haven't actually said the hard things of, "Hey, you can't hate your brother if you love Jesus." Yeah. You know, like here's the truth. You can't come to church, claim to be a Christian, and do one thing. And you know, you're referring to the text that we studied yesterday that if your brother sins against you, Jesus talks about that in Matthew 18. Yes. Then then go to them. Yeah. Between you and him alone, then go to him. Yes. And tell him his fault. Yes. And if he's unwilling to repent or see the error change, change his thinking or take one or two others with you. And this is a beautiful model. And I, you know, I've said this before, but this I don't think this is the only model. I don't think Jesus said, "Well, Matthew 18, you know what we have in in the verse context because there wasn't always verses, but you know, verses 15 through 20, that is the only model of
reconciliation." No, actually, I think we're meant to be ambassadors of reconciliation. We have a ministry of reconciliation. Yes. I I So, I think there are a multitude of ways we can reconcile um even publicly. But I do think the bigger problem and crisis is we're not doing it. Yeah. You know, and the church is uh hindered and held up by a a huge, you know, uh gaping uh stoppage in this pipeline of God's grace to bring forth revival, you know, and and I believe if we're going to be a repentant people, that's when we're going to experience revival. Yes. is we're going to experience what only God can do as he pours out his spirit. But when I think yesterday about
in my fantasy, you know, just to full disclosure and confessions of a pastor, I'll just confess I deeply desire people like we read about in the days of the first great awakening who just as a whole would weep, as a whole would repent, as a whole would cry out. You know, and what I saw on Sunday was what you just described, which in all seriousness, do not despise small beginnings. Zechariah says it was a few. There was a few and sometimes God starts with a few, you know, uh the revival in Wales with Evan Roberts. It started with a few, you know, bend my back, Lord, for what, you know, breaks yours. Humble me, you know. And we did see it yesterday, but
I I tell you, I mean, this is my perspective. It's confessions of a pastor, okay? When I'm on the platform, and I just preached my heart out about forgiveness and I'm calling people to First John 1:9. If you confess your sins, he's faithful and just to forgive your sins and to cleanse you from all unrighteousness. When I'm saying that and say, "Okay, we're going to put that into practice." And people start trickling out. Yeah. and trickling out and trickling out. It's easy to get insecure as a preacher and be like, man, did I not preach with greater authority? Why aren't people repenting? But we have we're living in a really interesting age. Yeah, we need the Holy Spirit to break through our generation. Yes, we're Gen X, you know, we've got millennials underneath us and then Gen Z. But right now, we don't have this gritty generation that uh is is
passionately on fire for the Lord. M we have a consumeristic uh Christianity that Paul warns about. Yeah. That people want their ears tickled and if their ears aren't tickled, they're going to go to the next thing. Yeah. And the best thing. And really, we helped cause that. You know, I was a contributor to that. We started Journey Church 16 years ago and what you do to catch them is what you got to do to keep them. And so now all of a sudden expecting revival. Well, the truth is we got to do some uh some heart surgery, some repenting, some some rewiring. Yeah. You know, what what do you think that looks like? Um I don't know. It feels when when you when I think about it on a big scale, like you say, you would love to see a whole community, you know, repenting at the same time.
That feels almost impossible. We have a God of the impossible. It is impossible. It requires the spirit of God. Yeah. Yeah. The glory of God, the weight. It does. It does. So I think I think we need to be faithful in trying to till that soil and in prayer in intercession um in modeling it ourselves so that we don't have any offenses bitterness that are lingering in our own hearts um from the top even as a staff like um and and be faithful. And I think we also need to be persistent. I don't think this is the only I I don't think it's I I think it'd be wisdom to continue to bring the conversation up and not just leave it there. Yeah. I'm going to be in agreement. Yeah. Yeah. It it cannot be a one-time sermon on a Sunday. No, this has to be a life infiltrate cultural Yeah. It DNA. This is who you are.
You know, when we we did study this on Tuesday with our staff and it was very vulnerable. Yes. I mean, there was staff that asked great questions, shared hard stories. Yes. You know, that's when we even talked about the murderous spirit because the one that was forgiven went out and held a debt against someone else. Yeah. A much lesser debt and choked him. And just the reality is that's that's what unforgiveness is. It's a murdering spirit. You know, one of our staff persons talked about a um a business deal gone wrong where he was literally robbed of more than $10,000 and he heard that this person's home was burned down and he's like, I'll be honest. First thing I thought about was Yeah. I wished he was burned with it. Yeah. It's like, oo, that's harsh. I love the honesty. Oh, it's totally.
Let's just be honest, Kara. I I can't say that I haven't had thoughts like that towards somebody. ill will wishing a curse upon somebody, you know, not Well, that's where that's where it gets really vulnerable and where the rubber meets the road is when you actually have been like I mean, we've been through so much. I mean, staff people who have tried to get you fired like I mean, when you've been through so much and then to to to have to confront that and be like, I can't I can't hold any bitterness or offense. Um, that's real. Yeah. I mean, we're talking about or let's go to even just a personal like if you if a a person was physically or emotionally abused by somebody. I mean, that's real. Yeah. So, and we and we talked about that and one person on our staff and another person talked about what do we do when we're
living with unforgiveness and the reason why I'm living with unforgiveness is I know this person will perpetuate the offense. Yes. So h how do we forgive someone who you know is going to continue to perpetual you know like you know is going to cause more damage you know as we process through that that well we start with the reality that forgiveness is is not condoning somebody and and it's not approving of what they've done. Uh what forgiveness is it's releasing uh you from prison is not releasing that person. Yeah. So, but then where's the line with reconciliation? Mhm. Well, I actually think they're different conversations, which is why, and they're not different conversations.
It's just multiple layers of God's grace and being a Christ follower. So, I think you can forgive someone without being reconciled. Let's start there. So, you don't have to be reconciled to forgive. The ultimate goal would be reconciliation. Yeah. But let's just look at some examples. If someone has died, you'll never be able to reconcile with them. Uh if if uh I mean there's a lot of different examples. I mean, we got someone on our staff whose father's been in prison for years and uh he's tried to reconcile and it hasn't worked, you know. So, I mean, there's there's a a plethora of examples where we can say you can seek reconciliation, but I I mean, I started the sermon off with that. Jesus talked about those three examples.
Go to them individually. Bring one or two others with you. Bring it to the church. Then he says, "Treat them as a pagan and tax collector." Yeah. Now, there's two thoughts on that. One is you cut them off because they're no longer in your family. You know, they're not in your tribe. Treat them as if they are out on the outside. Yeah. Exactly. Yeah. You you're you believe in the one true God. They don't. So, treat them as if they don't even take God at his word. Treat them as if they don't honor God as a pagan or a tax collector. Yes. Uh or a heathen, if you will. Or look at Jesus, what he did. Luke chapter 15 verse1 he was criticized for being with yes heathens and tax collectors you know so I I would say it's probably the latter but also not allowing it to consume you in terms of reconciliation. So if they're not behaving like a Christ
follower don't consume your life over this where you're going to perpetually stay in this crazy cycle of I got to reconcile. Got to reconcile. got to reconcile. Yeah. But also, one of the scriptures you I don't I I don't know it off the top of my head. You might, but you um quoted was essentially um forgiveness comes even if it happens seven time in a day. Seven times in a day. Luke 17 where um the person repents, forgiveness and reconciliation happens and then it happens again and it happens again and then it happens right to wrestle with. Well, I I got to tell you, this is stuff, Kara, that I just don't think we as a church are wrestling with enough. Well, no. And I think this is a really This one kind of that caught my eye yesterday because it was like, okay. Yeah.
This happens the same thing or something similar happens seven times in a day. And the person does repent. Yes. And then forgiveness is there and then does it again. And then does it again. And then does it again. Yes. What do we do with that? uh Luke uh 17. Okay. Now, uh I I started with verse three, which says, "Pay attention to yourselves," which I just love. I mean, it's like, "Hey, church, listen. Quit judging others." It's it's that verse that I misqued. actually that's going to be the one that goes live is uh I said you know when you judge someone else for the splinter uh in your own eye and the log in the their eye when it's actually the opposite when you judge them for having a splinter in their eye when the reality is you've got this long log and plank in your own eye
you know and Jesus says in Luke 17:3 pay attention to yourselves like look inwardly of yourselves so so quit trying to fix everybody else you got some stuff you got to work on. If your brother sins, rebuke him. So that's that's the conviction I told you I had. We got to do a little more rebuking. Yes. And if he repents, forgive him. So if he turns to God, trust God, forgive him. But this is where it gets hard. And then he does it again. And if he sins against you seven times in the day, yes, and turns to you seven times saying, "I repent, you must continue to forgive him. Forgive him. Forgive him. Forgive him." I mean, it's pretty wild. Um it's I mean the the whole thing I mean but if you look at a context the previous verses Kara and he said to the disciples temptations to sin are sure to come. Temptations to sin are sure to come. So that's the truth for all of us.
You wake up as sure as God's mercies are new every morning. Temptation to sin is new that day. But woe to the one whom they come. It would be better for him if a millstone were hung around his neck and he were cast into the sea that he should cause one of these little ones to sin. I mean, there's some serious stuff Jesus is saying. And and maybe we got to get back to the serious stuff, not lose sight of the fact that our God is a creator. So, let's just start there. there. God doesn't stay in one lane of serious burden, Bible beating, you know, dogmatic legalism. God has a sense of humor. Jesus talked about wanting to give us joy to the full. Uh we know he gives us a peace that surpasses understanding that guards our
hearts and our minds. But I also feel like we can't just come back to uh behavior modification. We got to come back to the hard teachings of if you're going to follow Jesus, forgiveness is not an option. Yes. And you I tried to say repeatedly in the sermon, which was hard for me to actually say, but when you because I'm saying to myself, this is a mirror. This isn't even me casting on the church. Like this is for all of us. When you receive God's grace, you forfeit all abilities to hold on to an offense. There's there's no justification. And I think the one thing we do as Christians is we justify, justify, justify. Yeah, you know, I didn't deserve that. They've done it to me too many times. I can't believe they did that to me.
Well, and I think we have a really hard time looking in the mirror. Uh um and just being and and recognizing that we have we we we do have like we have our own stuff and we've maybe played a part in it. like I I've rarely um come across people who um have the ability to selfreflect in a very honest way that are willing to um and and just acknowledge that there is um I got to work on my own stuff. So good instead of just putting it out in other people. And Jesus, his teaching is genius. It's genius. Well, I I think that's in our culture today in America. That's what we pay counselors for. So instead of putting it into practice in our private lives and in the church and in the context of community, we have to go to a counselor to draw it out of
us uh to do that self-reflection. And sometimes it works and sometimes it doesn't because if you're unwilling to get honest with a counselor, you could pay someone all you want, but the greatest healing and help that's going to happen in your life is when you quit blaming others, quit being a victim. And it doesn't mean they didn't hurt you. You may have been molested, raped, abused, but you don't have to stay a victim. Yeah. The good news of God is you are made in his image. You are a child of God. You don't have to dwell in the perpetualness of whatever caused that damage and hell that you went through. There is a re as resurrection story there. And but we do have to self-reflect. Where have I played the victim? Yes. Where am I still letting that person rule and keep me in prison? Yeah.
You know, and that that's the part of the story that gets me is this guy set free, holds a debt against somebody else and ends up in prison. How many times does the devil want us to do that? Tell us God says, "You're set free. You're forgiven of all your sins. Go in liberation. Share it on the rooftops." Yeah. And then we put ourselves back. You put yourself back in prison by putting somebody in prison. Both. It's like both parties end up Nobody wins. Yeah. Everybody loses here. Yeah. Well, I I I I long for revival in the church in a way. There is such a grace on the church that we come in and we're just ready to release all offenses where children are releasing offenses of their
parents and parents are releasing offenses of their children. That's that's that's prophecy in Malachi. You know that this is where we know Messiah Jesus is in this where we're not holding offenses. How many marriages, Kara, are so on the rocks and on the fringe of divorce because of an offense, you know, and even as we took community yesterday, I told you it's like I know we've forgiven each other. You know, it was one of the most powerful things at the marriage conference a few years ago when we did that uh what do you call that? Uh illustration of cleaning the slate. And I just remember you telling me, "I forgive you." And I just that hit me so powerful. Like I'm just like, "Wow, thank you." But but until but a part of that was recognizing what we've done.
Holding on to Well, just recognizing in self-reflection. How have we offended played a part in that? I think that's what I'm saying is I think we need a a revelation of none of us are perfect. It's okay that we maybe aren't perfect. Yeah. And we've made a mistake and we do have a part in relationship that's gone wrong. Um in some ways I mean there are I would say some exceptions you know abuse and things like that but I'm talking about more like just interpersonal church marriages. Yeah. Exactly. Like we can't fix the other person. We can only fix oursel. Yeah. Well that that that becomes very vulnerable and sometimes it's not like a one time hey I just forgive you. There's there's a wrestling through in community
where we've got to be willing to acknowledge our own stuff. Yeah. And, you know, in in light of scripture, endure and persevere and get through some stuff. You know, you think about uh Paul and Barnabas uh splitting over John Mark. Well, eventually they came back together. Yeah. Eventually there was some type of, you know, uh reconciliation. And it didn't happen overnight. It happened over a long period of time. And you know, speaking of that, I think we're experiencing that like I think we're at the genesis of that with some families right now at Journey. You know, I told you on Easter weekend, it was so weird to me how many people uh were back because I didn't I I wasn't looking for it. I wasn't expecting it.
We had just lost a few beautiful families. And that always stings, you know, when someone says, "Hey, we're out of here." And all of a sudden, people I haven't seen in years. Yeah. We're back at Journey for Easter week. And I don't know if they were back for Easter, but one of those families came up to us this week and just said, "Hey, we're back." Yeah. You know, and he let me know. I I just want to tell you our story. And it's been six years. Yeah. And he's like, "In light of what you just preached on," he's like, "I just need you to know it wasn't you, it was us. I wasn't offended." And I'm like, "Okay." Uh, you know, and at the end of the day, like, "Welcome home. Like, glad glad you're back." Like, And that's to me there will be a deeper intimacy and trust. It's like when you get to work through stuff, it's there's a greater intimacy and trust when people like tap out and cancel.
I'm going to a new church. Uh and if whatever offense you caused, can't do it anymore. Uh you have actually missed out on an opportunity for a deeper relationship. Yeah. And now I actually feel a little bit bad cuz you're starting off at a new church, a new community that takes years to develop. It does. I mean, if we're really going to get honest about what true community is, it takes years. I mean, that that movie, A Great Awakening, Kara, it hit me on so many different levels. Uh, George Whitfield was quite a man of God. And the movie is about the relationship between George Whitfield and Benjamin Franklin. And what struck me about that relationship is it was one of longsuffering and endurance. And it was it was really to me powerful. I mean, I don't know how much truth is in that, but it appeared
to be a pretty honest look at history, you know, of George Whitfield willing to constantly share the gospel to Benjamin Franklin, constantly coming back to his need for a savior, constantly saying, "Your intelligence isn't going to save you. Your inventions aren't going to save you. Your your work in this great nation isn't going to save you." It's it's Jesus crucified on the cross. And I I do think there is something about um tenacity, uh longsuffering, patience, uh endurance. Yeah. Well, that's when I think we've talked about it before on this podcast. I mean, that's that's when real fruit really develops is after lots of years and all the storms you've been through and just it it takes years, right?
Um yeah, most fruit trees don't produce fruit for the first few years of growth. You know, you plant the seed, sapling grows and starts to develop as a tree and you don't see the fruit right away. No. It takes three, four, five years before you actually start seeing a little bit of fruit. Yes. And then after that there's the first harvest and then you got to wait again for another harvest. And it's sometimes takes decades for a healthy tree to actually produce good fruit. M for me a person of uh I'm an inagram 7 so I love uh pleasure and uh making sure that things are good and feeling good and uh sometimes it's hard to have the patience to understand good things take time. Yeah.
You know and uh God's ways are often in the the waiting. I just read that today. Wait upon the Lord in the songs of ascent. I think it was Psalm 141. And I just even commented in that little journaling section of our annual Bing Bible reading like the Lord is worth the wait. He is worth the wait. Maybe it's not Psalm 141. Where I'm behind today. I didn't get to it today. Oh, where are the songs of ascent, Kara? I'm not sure which ones they are. They're Oh, here it is. Here it is. Uh Psalm 121. It's Psalm 121. Nope, not Psalm 121. Where am I? Psalm 131. I knew I'd get there. Psalm. I wait for the Lord, my soul waits, and in his
word I hope. My soul waits for the Lord more than the watchman for the morning, more than the watchman for the morning. I It strikes me as David writes these words, "I will wait for the Lord. My soul waits. And in his word, I hope." It's worth the waiting. Yeah. When a watchman's on the wall, you know, in the ancient days, they could go days and weeks with nothing happening. But that doesn't mean you're like, I'm going to quit. Yeah. I'm going to get off the wall because you know what? I'm not going to wait. If you're waiting and you see someone running with good news, how good it is to see someone with good news. You know, it's worth the waiting. We've won the war. It was it was worth it. Yeah. or the opposite, the enemy's coming, you know, but it's it's worth the waiting to get get that good fruit.
I feel like as as you as we mature and and go through more and more with the Lord and just see his faithfulness, I think that that just continually um is more meaningful and more meaningful and deeper and um proves true that the wait is worth it. you know, when you're young and impatient, um, and just haven't been through a lot of life. I think it's it's it it hits different when you're, you know, you've got, you know, your kids are almost out of the house and we've got 16 years under our belt of the church and it just it just hits different than it would have 16 years ago. Yeah. And I I feel like we're just maturing to understand that. I mean, it's taken so long for God to teach me some of the lessons that he's taught us. And I I wish for the next generation to have expedited learning. And sometimes it only happens through the school of hard knocks most of the time.
But the reality is those lessons uh often take take the hardships, you know. Uh man, I I I wouldn't wish them on anybody, but 16 years into journey, like I I'll say like Sunday, it was so good for me to have people come up and confess sin. Yeah. you know, uh, on multiple levels. Uh, I didn't see the mass revival like I was hoping. Um, I think it started though. I I think it planted seeds in hearts. Yeah. And you know, I I was willing in my heart, Kara, just to confess. And I have to come to a place that if I preach a message where if we lose half the church because of the truth, and I've said these sort of things before, but this really is unique. Am I am I willing to go to the places God wants us to go
so that he can say well done good and faithful. We should be. We really should be. But here's my dead honest truth. Is 16 years of journey. I like hype and emotion a lot better than conviction, heartache, and confession. I I really do. Like when there's chemistry and the whole church has their hands raised. Yeah. And people are weeping because the song hitting hard and you know there's the right haze and the right mood in the place. It sure feels like the Holy Spirit's moving mightily. And I'm I'm clarifying it feels because Holy Spirit might be. But the reality is it also might be emotions. You know, there's people in the pagan world that go to concerts that way more emotional than the churches. You go to a Taylor Swift
concert and you can have 30, 40,000 people weeping, weeping with their hands raised, willing to carry signs, hoping that she'll see it. You know, like they're more emotional than the churches to Taylor Swift. So, I want to be really careful as a pastor that I don't equate emotionalism and hype as a movement of God. And then when I preach a text like repent, Yeah. Because if you are unforgiven, you're hindering your prayer life. You know, men, you're hindering your prayer life. Uh if you have unforgiveness, you're a liar. You don't love God because you're hating your brother. You know, like there's just so much. Uh Paul told the church in Corenth that unforgiveness is being outwitted by the
devil. Yeah. You know, like you've been literally duped by the devil when you're holding on to unforgiveness. And we don't understand it cuz you're deceived. Yeah. I mean, you think you're justified in being mad at all yourself and and those around you because you're it spews out. And so, my point is sometimes the Holy Spirit's moving when it actually doesn't feel good. Yeah. Being we have to reject the other. I think it's both. I Yeah. But I would just say from my perspective and you know it's Monday morning so I'm a little bit hung over with exhaustion you know in terms of uh I want to be careful not to just uh have like a satirical or you know jaded view of the church and Christians but I I think I think it's a pretty extreme view of the church in America
right now including myself leaning much more heavily into uh good feelings of emotions with the movement of God versus conviction. And I I I you know coming back to that great awakening I to me just studying about Jonathan Edwards and George Whitfield these people that are moved you know watching grown men get on their knees and weep you know and beg their kids for forgiveness. That is a movement of God. That's what I want more of. I I want men and women to weep of the Cuz you said it earlier. It's recognizing your role. Yeah. The most impactful repentance of us is not just I'm sorry for what I've done. It's this is what I did to you. Yes. And it was wrong.
Yes. I did give you the silent treatment or I did say things to you I shouldn't have said and I did do those things and that was wrong of me and that was in my flesh and I hurt you. And I mean all of a sudden now it's like okay how now does the other person respond? And Jesus said in Matthew 18 doesn't doesn't always respond well but when you confess that you you're offering that reconciliation. It's beautiful. I mean you know one story I had yesterday was someone I was frustrated in my mind about in our church and uh I you and I have talked about this person who this person was uh hurt by someone else. There was an offense. It was a real hurt by another Christian in the church. It was a real hurt. And she was hurt by this person, carried the hurt by this person. And there's been a
lot of after effects of it. Cuz here's the deal. There's always a consequence to sin. Always. Yes. I heard it said recently, we talk about free will. Like we have the choice to do this or that. No, there actually is no such thing as free will. There's just will. Because it's not free. There's a price to pay for every decision we make. It's either good or bad. You get you get a return on investment of good or you have a price to pay, you know. So, this person was hurt by this other person in the church and it just seemed to be like weeks of kind of negative consequences, right? And I'm like, man, like what's going to happen with this, you know? And I had determined in my life, I think I need to tell this person they need to forgive this other person. I hadn't had the opportunity to do that yet. Uh but I had decided in my heart I I need to schedule a meeting and let this person know she needs to forgive this other person.
Well, lo and behold, she came to me after the service and said, "Pastor Keith, you need to know this. It's crazy. Before you even preached this message, I had determined in my heart, I have to release this unforgiveness. I have to forgive this person." So when you preached this, it was just so like God confirming in, you know, and I'm like, "Ah, yeah." Yeah, like Holy Spirit already is working in those things. Agreed. And it is powerful because it releases everybody. It releases us from holding on control. I have to now control what happens next. I have to control the outcome. I have to control what I do with my life. Now it's okay. Holy Spirit, I want you to control Absolutely. what you want to do with my life. Yes. It's powerful. It is. And you know, we had someone confess to us yesterday that they had uh lied to us. Yeah, we never would have known they lied to us ever.
That's happened to me several times at journey, you know, and they they that person was nervous. He was so sweet, so loving, so kind. I love this person. I was like, I forgive you. I have no bitterness, no offense. Amen. And here and it's the humility that it took though for a grown man. Praise be to God. I mean, that just makes me want to cry. I'm like, that's what the church that's who we are. We have to be able to be willing to selfrelect and say, "I've done something wrong and I'm going to come to you and I'm going to tell you. I'm going to ask for your forgiveness." Amen. Well, and what that does now is it releases the enemy from Yes. from now perpetuating that same sin. It releases that stronghold where the devil said, "Ha, I got you. You call yourself a Christian, but you're actually a liar. You're actually So, you're not a Christian. you you're you're holding uh you're holding sin in
your heart and you're claiming to be a Christian. But when that's released, devil, you got nothing on us. I know who I am. I know in my flesh I make mistakes, but I've been bloodbought. Yes. Amen. Christ died for that lie. He died for that sin. I'm not going to live in it anymore. I'm going to release it and I'm going to be set free. And so are you. God. Well, the timing of all this I I I mentioned this to you this morning as we were processing yesterday and you know the the idea of kingdom come. You know, I was going to bring this up. I think what you're going to say. Yeah. I I got this fantasy last um going into this year. Yeah. I always pray about Lord, where do you want us to be? You know, in the in the the next year, like where are we as a church? What have you been doing? What are you doing? And and what are you stepping us into? And I really felt the Lord leaning in on me. Kingdom come. Yeah.
You know, like bring the kingdom, you know, and and not me. I can't usher it. But uh but God can like it's the king. It's Jesus in our life. It's it's the supremacy of Christ in all things. That's kingdom come. I know. He taught us to pray it. I really didn't understand the full like once I got into his parables. Yes. This this year's messed with me. We're only in April. Kara, isn't that typically how God works though? was like, "We think he's going to work one way." Come on. And he doesn't, but it's like way better, but it's worse, but it's better. It is. Like, what do I do with it? That's exactly it. So, I I I thought in my mind, kingdom come is going to be revival. Everyone's going to be happy. The marriage is going to be restored and families will be restored. The church will be happy. There'll be church growth. Everybody's going to be on fire because we experience kingdom come.
But that's not the case, right? Kingdom comes sometimes. Well, okay, tell us what you're talking about. What the parables that we've been studying. Well, you know, a week ago we talked about kingdom is a mustard seed. Sometimes the kingdom starts small. And I don't think we like small beginnings. And so sometimes it starts small, but then it obviously invades and takes over. Yeah. But the kingdom is so it's it's the antithesis to anything here on earth. Yes. It is literally everything we understand in the marketplace and we're taught in schools. Everything our flesh desires. The kingdom is opposite. The last or first. Yes. You got to be like a child. I mean it's it's you know you got to love like Jesus you know uh
which is get down in the dirt and wash the feet. Yes. I mean it's it's everything is the kingdom is contrary to what we know. And so teaching through these parables like the mustard seed or this week the unforgiving servant forgiven of 10,000 talents the equivalent of our day billions of dollars. You know the new living translation which was translated I think it started in the 70s and then the most recent update of the edited version of the new living translation is I believe 1995. It says that the unforgiving servant had $1 million. And you think about 1995 to 2026, that's what is that 30 years ago? Oh, something like that. Yeah. So, you got 30 years ago. Yeah.
A million dollars 30 years ago today is a million dollars isn't that much money. You know, you could barely buy a house for a million dollars today. Whereas 30 years ago, a million dollars would have purchased you 10 houses. Yeah. I don't know. But, uh, the point is the debt though that this guy was so great and the unforgiving servant goes out. And the thing that struck me is I've heard many many pastors I told you I listened to a lot of sermons on this. Many pastors says, "Oh, the guy hardly owed him anything. It was like 20 bucks, you know, or like 10 bucks, you know." No, it wasn't a small amount. It was 100 dinari. Yeah. A dinari is a day's worth of wages. So what is that like three and a half more than three months worth of wages? So we're not talking like a small amount of money, you know? He actually did owe him Yes. But not but in comparison. it well
it's in comparison and I think that they don't even hold the candle to each other but that's the problem when we wake up I don't think we go to God first thing in the morning say whoa I am forgiven I agree my mercy like your mercies covered all my sins far as the east is from the west well it's a part of that self-reflection I feel like that we're talking about is it it has to start with our own reflection of the the who who we actually are what we've actually been forgiven of and and start there we have to start there well if we look back in church history the last 2,000 years. I think those are major moves of God. That's why monks create monasteries. You know, it becomes that extremism of saying, "Hey, we need to set ourselves apart. We need to, you know, remove ourselves from the world because this world is so distracting.
I I hardly know what to do." Like I I think the Holy Spirit is really messing with me right now because it's hard to even watch a movie when the Holy Spirit convicts you. You know, I tried to watch one yesterday. I had cuss words throughout the whole thing and my daughter walked in. I apologized for the movie being on. I'm just like even today I woke up to myself thinking I shouldn't have watched that movie. I did watch the whole thing. Whatever it was, 2 hours, hour and a half, I could have read my Bible. I could have read a book. I could have prayed you know it's like it's we do have to reflect of wait a second okay I don't have to sit in that guilt now I I am forgiven of that I get to move on from that but there is a place where we have to understand our own depravity absolutely so that when someone sins against us we
don't see them as worse than us exactly you know that we don't look at them and say I'm better than you yes and I man we have we have we have really created a world of self- worship. We really have where we worship ourselves, our president, our, you know, uh, politicians, senators in Congress. Well, take it to a micro level. I mean, social, I think social media has had a huge play in that. All the selfies and all the like me, like me, like me. Comment how we're creating this. Oh, yeah. And so now then I if revival really is going to break out and the kingdom is contrary to that self- worship, we're flipping this upside down.
Yeah. It's everything opposite. But then the other part of the um the parables that you know you've been really coming to terms with as you've you're preaching through them is just that there is a day there is a day that's coming of judgment. Of judgment and like every one of them almost end with it. Yeah, it's been like this unforeseen um piece of this kingdom um message messages that we've been doing all year that's just like oh whoa wait a second Kara I I I told you that the studying the parables of the kingdom have have shaken me because Jesus consistently is telling us there's a harvest coming yes which reflects there's a judgment coming you know the book of revelation the last book of the scriptures is the revelation of Christ.
It's the apocalypse. It's It's a reminder that Jesus is coming again. It's a reminder his wrath will be poured out on unrepentant people. God's wrath. This is serious. I mean, you read about the bulls being poured out in Revelation. And when Jesus talks about these parables, he talks about the wheat and the weeds. Yeah. You know, the kingdom is like uh you know, seeds that are sown in a field, but the enemy comes and sews weeds. And Jesus warns there's coming a harvest where the wheat and the weeds will be separated and those weeds will be thrown in and burned. I mean it over and over we're we're told of this. And I I'm just like, wait, why is the church not talking about judgment? Why are we not talking about Christ's second coming? Why are we not talking about God's judgment is real? His eyes burn like fire. And it's not meant I I I
say this and I I mean this. It's not meant to scare us, but it should be the reality of, "Oh, this is real. This should move me to evangelize to a a world that's not believing in Jesus." Guys, Jesus is real. Yeah. And I think we have to like I think if you get too far on that end, you know, and just and just like laser like focus on that, you lose you lose the love of God. Like you have to we have to keep the whole context of scripture in in balance, right? We can hold we can hold love and judgment Yeah. together because that's that's the God that we have. Well, then you you take it to the extreme. You've got those guys downtown holding big signs saying you're going to burn in hell, right? And that's what I'm saying. There's you're missing the full kingdom message, which is God loved you enough to save you from hell, you know, and give you the gift of let's not lose our first love. Amen.
Because that's where it all like everything everything flows from love. We cuz otherwise it's just like you're just afraid of this God who has judgment. Wait a second. He's a God that loves us. He loves us. Amen. And and that is the overarching culmination of the kingdom is he is a God that is love. It's his kindness that leads to repentance. Hallelujah. That we get to repent and and run to the throne of grace in times of help. Uh he he's not a god of condemnation. Romans 8:1. And so th this is not a a a message of of guilt. Uh this is a message of grace. Absolutely. And God's grace is so great. There's grace upon grace upon grace. Well, I think of that, Kara, and I'm going to um I I don't know how long we've been talking in this podcast, but I want to just continue to open up this
Pandora's box in our lives here. And that is, you know, we've been hurt by so many people. And I, you know, and you've also probably hurt people. Oh my goodness. I'm sure I I have. Okay. I I am sure I have. But in in in light of some of the people that have hurt us and we talk about the f word, you know, and I know we talk about this privately in our home and whatnot, just the two of us, but just let's just expose to the whole world or whoever's listened this far. Do you think there's people who have hurt us? I'm thinking of staff, people, people have been close to us that we're have any unforgiveness in our lives like we have unforgiveness. Yeah. And the reason I I don't know. I've self I've self searched. Yeah. I don't know. I That's why I asked the difference between unforgiveness and reconciliation because I don't think I harbor any offense or bitterness. I I do
think it still lingers there because there is some unreconciliation. Yeah. Well, and that that's hard. I mean, uh I there there was a a pastor that was on staff here uh that left and uh he wrote me uh a note once that just said, "I forgive you." And um and I hope you'll forgive me. That was the context of the note. And I remember being really frustrated with that note because there was two things I didn't like about it. Number one is wait, you're forgiving me of something that I don't know what you're forgiven me of. What offense have I done to you? I need you to tell me so that I understand what what did I do to you? Yeah. I mean, because I I like we talked about, I have heard people tell me that you have offended me. I mean, there there's some that stand out to me. Like,
there's one guy that left our church for at least a year, maybe two or three years. I remember he said, "I need to meet with you. Uh, it's it's really serious." And I'm like, "Okay." I meet with him and he's like, "I need to ask for your forgiveness because I've held an offense that you did to me for years." And I'm like, "Well, what is it?" And this is I've told you this story before. Uh but we were doing communion at church. We were much smaller. We were downstairs underneath the nightclub and we were small 70 80 people and we had set up communion probably for 50 people and I we did the Lord's supper, you know, we prayed and called people forward and we ran out of communion. We didn't have enough for everybody. Mhm.
And so I had said during that church service, "Hey, we've run out of communion." If you would like to stay afterwards and take communion, you can stay afterwards. For whatever reason, that man felt like that was unsacred. I don't know if he came from a Catholic background or some type of religious background. That's like he took some weird offense. And I for me it's weird. Maybe it wasn't to somebody's listening to him. It was real. He's like, he's like he was mad at me and left our church that Sunday, did not come back, and a few years later wanted to come back to journey, but felt like he needed to tell me, "I've been mad at you for a long time because you ran out of communion, and you told people if you want to wait after church to take communion."
So, all that to say is I remember him telling me like, "Will you forgive me?" I was like, "I forgive you." Cuz that's weird. Like, okay. Like, I didn't even know I finished. That was real in his own heart. Yeah. And he had replayed this over and over and over. So my point is coming back to this pastor who said, "I I forgive you." I'm like, "Well, help me understand what are you forgiving me of?" Mhm. Well, how did I hurt your feelings? That reminds me of I don't know if you remember this, but I'll I'll just say it really quickly. It was a similar example to what you just said about the communion was there was a um a guy who was at the church, the previous church, not not Journey, it was before Journey, and he was an eye doctor. And um I was going to him. I um and I don't know if you I don't know if you remember this, but this was it was you canceled an appointment. Well, but here's here's where the reason I'm bringing this up is because I actually canceled an appointment multiple times with him. I was young.
We had babies. I mean, babies. We had three kids under the age of five and we were poor. Start a journey. As poor as poor can be. And I canceled for for reasons because I didn't have a babysitter. I we didn't have the money. Yeah. You know, and so to have someone say, "I held an offense against you." You're like, there's a bigger piece to this story. If we could have just sat at the table together and I could have told you, I'm not saying what I did was right. Yeah. So, the doctor told you, "I've been mad at you for years because you kept cancing these appointments and I've been angry at you for years." And here I am like, we didn't have the money and I didn't have someone to watch my kids, right? I had good intentions, but had he come and sat with me, we could have actually probably worked through it a lot sooner than when it happened, right? And you know so it's in that place like you know coming back to even the letter example I'm I'm referring to
and then he's asking for forgiveness from me like you I have repeated not only in my heart but out loud I do not want to give the devil a foothold in my life and I think that towhold that real estate that we've talked about starts with bitterness. Yes. And bitterness it just breeds cancer in the soul. Mhm. I don't want to be bitter towards anybody else. But when there's not that reconciliation, it does blur the lines of uh kingdom. Yeah. You know, of of what does that look like and how does that look and why do you think there's so many denominations and so many churches and sex of churches? I mean, we've even seen in our own community uh churches that have split. You know, uh why is there one assembly of God here and another one over here?
And why is there one of of these over here and one of these over here? There's these these splitting because of a lack of reconciliation. Uh I mean I heard someone just this year tell me that we started this church because we split from another church. I'm like no actually that's not the narrative. No, but they had come to a conclusion that if we came from another church, we must have split. We must have split from them and I must have thought I could do it better or I must have been mad at the pastor. I'm like, "No, that pastor blessed us. He He gave us office and said, "I I bless you to do this." Yes. I mean, he went with us to church planting training. And I mean, it's like it's it's a lie of the enemy to to to conclude that the ways of the world must work on everybody else. But the reality
is, no, we were blessed with this. But it's not to say, like you said, we have held offenses. We've caused offenses. Yeah. But praise be to God that his kingdom has come and we are not to go out and choke people and throw them into prison. We are to be set free. Yes. And we are to liberate others. Uh Jesus said, "The spirit of the Lord is upon me." Uh he has anointed me to preach good news and to set the captives free. And we are seeing that in prisons. Praise be to God. I was so glad to hear even Noah's reminder on Sunday that Saturday we had 13 men give their lives to Jesus. This is the message that crosses uh racial lines, cultural lines, socioeconomic lines. Uh the message of the gospel of Jesus Christ is for all people. It is the authority that we all
need that we have sinned. We have a savior in Jesus Christ and now we got to walk in that kingdom. We have to walk in it. That's and that's the stuff we're talking about. How how do we live how do we live in the kingdom of God? Yes. How do we live? I mean, how do we allow the Holy Spirit to just work through us and Yes. become more and more like Jes transform? Yes. And and man, uh I guess I can say with a complete um optimism that it's the part of the kingdom and the the gospel I don't like. But like you said earlier and uh it's it should be a phrase of the message of God. It's like the worst thing and the best thing all at the same time. Yeah. Because when you really stay married long enough, you will go through some really hard times.
I don't like hearing that couples have been married for decades and then say that they've never fought cuz I'm like then you haven't gotten that real. Yeah. I mean somewhere you should have thought about your kids or your finances or some offense somewhere something happens because it's through those times that you actually have the intimacy of what happened in the garden in Genesis 3 that you recognize I'm naked and I I'm exposed and I need to recognize that I need to be clothed with some type of sacrifice, you know. And you know, today the greatest vulnerability we could have is I need a savior. I've been clothed by the blood of Jesus Christ. I wear his robe of righteousness and uh I don't want to live in that shame any longer. Yeah. It's it's uh shake off the ashes.
Oh yeah. Put on put on a garment of praise. Put it on. Put it on. The church needs this. Yeah. Uh just living in in the kingdom is actually a beautiful thing. Like it's hard. It can be hard, but it's also free. It's freeing. It's there's so much love and joy. Yeah. And peace. Amen. When we really walk in the ways of Jesus and accept the love that he's given us um and the the grace and the mercy and we really do give it away. I mean that's um that's next level living. I think it is. It's it's the power of God at work. And you know, a few weeks ago, we had or just I guess a week ago, we had baptisms. And watching that the kingdom, it it crosses it. Everybody needs it. Mhm.
You know, a 13-year-old boy and his older brothers, you know, like we need this. Yes. It's the mom who's desperately tried to do it on her own and is still guilty from something from decades earlier. We need this. It's every one of us that steps forward and says in vulnerability, I need to be baptized with Christ. We need this. Yeah. Amen. And I I do think when you have that humility before the Lord, which is what Colossians 3 talks about, put on then as God's chosen and holy beloved, he he talks about not just compassionate hearts or kindness, but he says humility. Humility. Yeah. And humility is probably the first step of repentance.
No, I agree. of like it's it's humility is in some sense saying I'm not God. Yeah. And I don't think anybody out loud would say they're God. Yeah. But it's pretty easy to play the role of God. Yeah. And to not again self-reflect. Yeah. And say I am not perfect. Yes. You you just have to get behind the steering wheel of your car and think I'm a better driver than everybody else. That's hilarious. I don't think I've ever thought that. You say that a lot. What's funny is the world reflects it. Like there's so many groups on Facebook about bad drivers. I guess I don't follow him. I don't see that kind of stuff. Oh man, I I follow them. Does that just feed the rage? It doesn't feed the rage. I guess I'm I I've never once commented on any of these, but I mean there's people that there's this idiot pulled in front of me
and then they take a picture and say, "I took this picture at the stoplight." You know, like I mean this over and over. I have you ever pulled in front of somebody like that? I probably have. Yeah, absolutely. I think about that all the time. Let's just have a little bit of grace and we don't know what was going on in their mind. We don't know if they're stressed out because of what just happened. Kid screaming in the back of the car. Come on. Let's go. Let's prefer one another. And that requires the Holy Spirit to give you grace for what's going on. And that's where revival is going to happen. Yeah. Kara is when people are pulling out of the parking lot on Sunday and there's traffic jams everywhere. I mean, we we hear stories of people flipping off. I know. It's terrible. Sunday mornings in our parking lot. I know it's bad. It because that's that's what the enemy wants to do is there's no kingdom come there. No, there's no kingdom come. Well, as I think about this, Kara, what do you think's next for for revival and a great awakening?
I have no answer. I like as I've said, we've sometimes we feel like like there was a I don't know about a month ago, we brought in a worship artist here and we were like breakthrough's coming, breakthrough's coming. It definitely came. It came in our personal life. It came in some church things. It was so much different than what we thought it was going to be. Praise Jesus. That's how I feel right now is like I don't know. We can't manufacture anything. We can be faithful to the word and to the spirit and that's all we can do. We can intercede and we can be persistent. Let's go. And we preach the word and we um live the word and and that's I don't know. That's probably a terrible answer. I don't know. What do you think? Well, I appreciate the honesty that you don't know. Uh I I I mean it's it's hard to manufacture what revival is gonna be like or look like.
I do feel like coming off of a Sunday where it's like you preach a message about kingdom and a message about forgiveness and then the outcome isn't what I prepared or predicted in my mind. So then like to try to manufacture the future uh you know in Acts chapter 2 when they were praying in one accord there was only 120 of them. Mh. You know, Jesus revealed himself to at least 500. 120 were in unity and prayer. I don't think they expected tongues of fire. Yeah. Sounds of a rushing wind and a different language on their lips. I agree. And so when I think about what God's doing, I guess I still have to repent of what my fantasy of revival is that it could just be 120. uh you know and it actually just makes me emotional because like my pride and insecurity as a pastor is bigger is better.
You know that's it's one of the hard it's like having a 12:30 service is the best and worst things ever because it's the worst in the sense that it's the smallest of all the three services. It's a third of the size of the other two services. So part of me wants to just kill it because like oh it's not big it doesn't have the chemistry you know it's like but at the end of the day it also since ever since we started it it's caused me humility because most of the time more people get saved at that service than any of the other services. So I'm like there's less people and more salvations. There tends to be more spiritual fruit that comes out of it. And who's to say that God wouldn't move a revival with 120 people versus 700 people? Yeah. So if every seat was full and there's no revival and a third of the seats are full and there is revival, what do I want? And so for me, and this
is this so dumb. I feel like even stupid confessing it, but even if nobody watches this, it's confessions of a pastor, I think revival is going to come with the full release of our expectations of what God's going to do. Yes. And the full allowing of the Holy Spirit to move. And I'll tell you what I think that looks like. There will be the operation of gifts. Mhm. There will be tongues. There will be the interpretation of tongues. I agree. There will be prophecy. There will be words of knowledge. There will be generosity. There will be administration. Yes. There will be hospitality. And there people will have needs and those needs will be met. And there will be people healed. Uh, so I I I think when we continue to see what we're starting to see
on an increase of multiplication, there's revival. I agree. So I I want to unleash that and uh believe God's best as we step into whatever's next. Yeah. Uh we've got a Kingdom Come conference coming later this year. We haven't even announced it to the church yet. Uh but I'm believing for some revival through some outside speakers coming in saying what needs to be said. Uh we've got some uh worship artists coming, including one from Ohio, a family um that I think might release an anointing and impartation to us. Uh we've got uh our own personal pastor coming in June. Um which is kind of scary. Like dad's coming. Uh but who knows what that will be to our house. Maybe nothing, but maybe everything. Yeah. So, uh I would hope, let me just finish with this.
I really want our kids to encounter the Lord. And when I say encounter the Lord, I'm talking like a shaking, a breaking. I'm talking like the glory of God shows up where they know it's God. Uh that So if if that happens in our lifetime, yeah, that's that's enough for me. I know all three of our kids have professed faith in Jesus. All three of them love Jesus. All three of them worship in their own ways. There's no doubt in my mind they they know God's grace and their forgiveness of sins. What I'm talking is supernatural divine revelation of a Moses moment, God speaking through a burning bush. I'm talking about an Elijah moment of the whisper in the cave. You know, I I'm talking about uh seeing a movement of God, a stepping into a David and Goliath mo, a Daniel in
the cave with the lions moment. I'm talking about a Shadrach, Meshach, and the fire mo. I want my kids to encounter a living God in a way that is undeniable. He shows up. Yes. And so, uh, I'm praying it and believing it. So, uh, there's there's much we didn't talk about today we want to talk about, but we've talked a long time about forgiveness. We talked about the kingdom. If anyone's made it this far, thanks for joining us and thanks for walking through our counseling session today. Right. It was a little bit of counseling today. It was. And like you said, it's not the end. So, it's the beginning of greater things to come and I want to just pray for us and uh believe God's best over this. So, I'm going to just press in for just a moment uh for this. So, Lord, as we talk about
kingdom and we talk about forgiveness, uh one can't happen without the other. We need your kingdom come and your will to be done in our lives as it is in heaven. You never called us to complacency or ordinary life. And so I'm asking in the name of Jesus that we would take you so serious that just like you spoke to the church in Revelation, we would be awakened that we wouldn't abandon our first love. That God, we would not be lukewarm. We would not boast to be rich when in reality we are poor, naked, and wretched. And so I call upon you, the living God, that you would awaken your church for such a time as this. That you would awaken each of us that believes in you. That we would be the reality of your kingdom come here on earth. That we would be your hands and your feet. that we would be the bride getting ready for the marriage supper of
the lamb. That we would take you so seriously that as these parables you taught us, Jesus, we would have our lamps filled with oil. For we know not the hour when you will return. But Lord, let us not sleep or slumber in such a way that our apathy hinders us, Lord. Your judgment is real. Your harvest is coming. And so, Lord, would you send forth workers, Lord, because the harvest is plentiful and the workers are few. So, we're calling upon revival even in our region. And we're asking God that central Oregon shall be saved. That the state of Oregon would not be known for the liberality of of of politics that we're known for right now, but we would be known for for for a kingdom revival in our region. We want to be known that Jesus your fame would spread. We want to be known that your grace is so great that people get on their knees and repent. That God professions would change. That the economy would change.
that Third Street would not be known as a place of cannabis shops or or or sex shops or this is the place where the strip club is, but Third Street would be known for revival. And so, I'm calling upon you, Jesus Christ of Nazareth, who came in the flesh. You are Messiah. And so, we thank you by the power of who you are that we have received your Holy Spirit. And we're asking for your glory, God. We're asking for your glory in our lifetime just as Moses did. We don't want to go anywhere without your presence, God. It's your presence that sets us apart as your people. So, it's not about within the confines of church on a Sunday. We're saying, Lord, where we go, we want you to go. We want your Holy Spirit to go in front of us. We want you to fill us. We want you to anoint us with the power of your spirit that God, people are laying on of the hands wherever they go. In the grocery store, Lord, that they in the coffee
shops, Lord, in their workplaces, Lord, I'm asking for a movement of God in our generation. Jesus, I'm asking in our family. I'm asking in on the staff at Journey Church in Bend, Oregon, that Jesus, you would continue a greater work. That today's uh conversation would not just be a conversation. This would be the sewing of the seeds of the kingdom of God. That it wouldn't stay small, but like a mustard seed, it would be invasive. That we would look back and say, "Don't you remember that conversation, Car? Don't you remember that conversation when we talked about forgiveness? that it's not about a onetime moment on a Sunday, but this is this is in our DNA that we're going to be a people of grace giving. We're going to be a people that forgives other people. So, thank you, Lord, for
forgiving us. Thank you for the debt that you paid on the cross. Thank you for your blood Jesus shed. Thank you that we are forgiven and we thank you for the power of the resurrection. Now, may may we operate in that power and the authority. And to all who have even listened this far, Lord, I pray for an impartation that you would infuse an inspiration, God, that you have not called them to hold on to an offense, but release it today in the name of Jesus. Release it right where you are and experience the liberty that comes with the forgiveness of your sins. Forgive that other person as Christ has forgiven you. So Lord, we thank you that spouses are going to forgive one another. We thank you that children are going to forgive their parents. We thank you that God you have finished that work and we love you Jesus and we thank you for all these things today. We bless you
because you've blessed us in Jesus mighty name. Come on somebody shout amen. Amen. Amen. Hey, thanks for joining us on Confessions of a Pastor. We will see you next time. Okay, go live out the kingdom right where you are.
