What Pastors Wish Everyone Knew

This is Confessions of a Pastor, a relentlessly real peak behind the scenes of Journey [music] Church in Bend, Oregon. From church in a strip club to a strip mall, going where Jesus would go to reach people Jesus would reach. This is the good, the bad, and the ugly. All for the glory of God. A journey of misery and miracles. We are your hosts and the founders of Journey Church in Ben. I'm Pastor Keith. And I'm Pastor Kara. [music] Come on. There really is hope for everyone. This is Confessions of a Pastor. Hey my friends, I am Pastor Keith and today I am not joined with my wife who's normally the pastor I'm confessing with, but she's unavailable today. So I got the second best. I got my brothers in the house. Come on, baby. We are here to

confess with Brandon. Come on, let's go. All right, guys. I guess we got to address the elephant in the room right away. Okay, y'all are both wearing hats. Backwards. Well, I mean, you're you're also wearing you're also wearing that's the elephant. Yeah. Well, that's true. I feel like on Monday, I feel like I always wear a hat. Me, too. I think it's part of like the Monday rhythm. I don't know. I don't know why I started wearing mine backwards cuz it looks dope. But it was a revelation. I put [laughter] it on one day and I was like, "Oh, the deeper elephant." I was joking about you both wearing hats cuz I'm wearing one, too. But let's just go here for a second. Are you allowed to wear hats at church? Absolutely. I mean, if not, I'm I'm in trouble. You wear a hat on Thursday. Well, okay.

Rarely now on a Sunday. When I was first here, I was rocking the hat on a Sunday quite a bit. Now it's just like pursuit. I feel like I almost always have a hat on Thursday night at Pursuit. It's Doesn't the Bible say that women should cover their heads? Bible says a lot of things. Yeah. [laughter] Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It does say a lot of things. Oh, and I know they talk about Paul, like Paul saying, you know, all the things that people still try to apply. It's like we just got, you know, hey, tell me more about context. I just thought we'd start off this podcast just at least at least going wild with the elephants because here's the deal. I don't even I really can care less about your opinion on this cuz here's here's [laughter] here's here's the real deal. Okay, here's the deal. There's people they could be really um how do you say sometimes?

Brutal. Oh, I was going to say dumb, but uh both mean and mean and all the things. And we've definitely gotten comments about people wearing hat before. I mean uh you guys in this room, we've got Calli and Hannah in the room. You guys have seen some of those comments before, you know, like, "Hey, take off that hat if you're in church." Yeah. You know, as if somehow like them watching on social media makes it more holy to criticize or something. Oh, yeah. The Pharisee keyboard warriors. Yeah. I I just I'm like I I can't imagine how low it is on the totem pole of like you know you go before the Lord one day and he's you know he's taking your life in church. Yeah. And he's just taking you through your life and he's like and oh when when when I lived in the Bible belt I was asked by an usher one time to take off my beanie.

Like an usher dude came and tapped me on the shoulder and says sir we're going to need you to take you say hey take it off for me. I mean [laughter] there's that being in you, but I I complied. Yeah. So that that's honor, but it is it's so silly in the world that we live in today, the minutia. And I loved the way you you I was going to start off today saying this how we're going to tee it up today. But [laughter] I totally missed a joke. But Connor, I like how you teed that up with like going going before God like what really matters. And actually, I do think we have some ideas cuz Jesus says what matters. Did you visit me in prison? Did you Did you give me a cup of cold water? I think he forgot the whole wearing a hat in church thing. Yeah. Were you focused on loving as you've been loved?

Were you focused on people taking off their dad gum hats? Yeah. Yeah. Like what is love? You know? I mean, what if some people just look better with a hat on? Like I know some dudes. I'm like a great response is just to be sir, will you take your hat off? You're just like, listen, buddy. Never mind. Put it back. [laughter] I'm doing us both a favor. All right. Can we just Can we just keep something between us and the listeners for just a moment? [laughter] It's got to stay here. Okay. Seriously, there's a guy that I go to the chiropractor with who takes off his hat to get cracked and he's one of those like you look [laughter] so much better with that. Wow, that's doing you a lot of favors. Looks so good. So, just keep that here. That's a terrible judgment. So, to my friend who I'm sorry, I shouldn't have said that. I think No, you should. I think one of my favorite things about life right now is we are laughing all the time. Yeah. Amen.

Like our staff is laughing all the time. Like if you can't have fun doing ministry, like go do something else. Not that there's not sobering moments, [clears throat] but I love that we're laughing all the time. Yeah. So, if you made it this far in the podcast and you're not offended and haven't turned it off and give this a low rating, [laughter] um it is there's something about unity and laughter. This is it's the truth in marriage. It's the truth in family. Yeah, there's something maybe our nation needs some laughter to heal that division, you know, just it's a good word. Yeah. I mean, political leaders. Yeah. Jesus was anointed with the oil of gladness more than all of his companions. Like, we need that Isaac anointing. We need to laugh. It's good for the body. Yeah. So, tell somebody who doesn't know the Isaac anointing. Why? Why is that called?

Yeah. Well, Isaac Yeah. Explain what that means. Translated the word Isaac as laughter. There we go. Yeah. Yeah. So, it's good to Some people don't know that. It's good to You're right. Yeah. So, we prophesy an Isaac anointing of this generation that we can we can just even laugh at the reality that God doesn't work our way. That was fair of Sarah to laugh at this. No doubt. Like I I can imagine her just like looking at her wrinkly skin like, you know, start laughing at herself. It's even It's fun to like I was just thinking about that, too. It's fun to imagine the tone of that dialogue between her and the Lord. Yeah. Yes. Of the Lord saying it twice where he's like, "Why'd you laugh?" She's like, "Ah, I [laughter] didn't I didn't laugh." He's like, "You did laugh." You know what I mean? It could I just I find it hard to believe that the Lord was like, "Why did you laugh?" And he's like, "Why'd you laugh?" Yeah. No doubt.

You know what I found the old Well, she named her kid after this. So, I mean, it's pretty like totally significant. I mean, that that the there's the insight. Yeah. The Lord used it in a way that it was enough. If not, she would have been like, "Hey, let's call him George or something." You know, [laughter] let's call him George. We're going to backpedal hard on on this one. I don't want to be triggered every time I say my son's name. Right. Totally. But, you know, we we talked yesterday at church about small beginnings. And I think the Lord often will use things that are so they they seem insignificant and they end up becoming the biggest things. I mean, the kingdom is so backwards to the kingdom of this world. The kingdom of God is so what we're conditioned to. How we expect things to fall into play. Absolutely. Yeah. I mean, I I preached this message yesterday, but it could have been three or four hours of examples in the Bible of things like Sarah. I mean, obviously

not young, but small beginnings. I mean, she has no kids. It looks like it's over. And God's like, "Oh, that's when I'm just getting started." You know, I I thought this morning about the widow's might. M it was significant to me because Jesus points out this woman that just gives her all and all she has is a fraction of a penny, you know, like [clears throat] you know, just hardly anything that God He loves to use the things that the world would over overlook. Totally. I love that about my God. Amen. That's your story. That's your story. Amen. I mean, think about not knowing really who your dad is. Yeah. From the middle of nowhere, California. Come on. You know, you're from Fresno. Let's We don't know. Hey, we'll talk about Fresno. But that's I mean, that's It used to be the murder capital of the world.

Did it really? [laughter] Yes. Huh. See, when in the '9s, was it in the '90s? Yes. That's crazy. I was so sheltered growing up. Oh, man. That whole like strip right there like where it's like you're either a farmer or a gangster, you know, choose one. The only thing I knew about Fresno is that credit cards like were tested out there for the first time. What? Yeah. It's like the first Yeah. The first iteration of credit cards was test out in Fresno. But anyway, back. Did you Did you PK, did you ever see when you first planted the church? Mhm. Did you ever see the church being like honestly what it is now? Oh, I think I expected it earlier and more. God put something in me like from birth and I think he put

something in all of us. I think it's like a a kingdom thing for more for for for believing and wanting more in life. And I think my whole life I've always wanted more. So I grew up in a small rural California uh small rural town in Northern California and I hated it cuz nothing good comes out there. It was like the Nazareth of California. I mean it was like it's called Hu Rica and it's like there's cows and uh now there's a Walmart but there wasn't even Walmart growing up, you know? There was nothing. Yeah. So, I always dreamed of like more. I I it's like I had something to prove. Even before I was a believer in Jesus, I had something to prove. So, fast forward, I'm a believer in Jesus now. I'll start Journey Church. I really dreamed of a huge church reaching lots of people. But I've repented of this dream because my fantasy was not God's dream. It was my dream.

And I wanted a big church full of good people that liked me, you know? So if I just get really real and I in my fantasy it's like oh that means because people are changed and marriages are good and I didn't realize how broken people are. I didn't realize how broken I was. I didn't realize that God's church is different than than what man celebrates. Yeah. So although our church is large now it's full of broken people. I mean just messed up people. Well it's like God put a dream in your heart but we like immediately put our interpretation over it. We're like I'll take it from your God. So what I'm really seeing is and the dream is actually like what he puts in our heart when it comes to fruition is obviously eons better than what we imagine it. You're like, "Oh, I should have just stayed out of this [laughter] and like let you do it." He puts that dream in your heart, but you have to be surrendered and submitted

enough to see it fulfilled. And that's where I'm grateful now because now it's like a whole bunch of people who I love Journey because it's people that are willing to admit they need a savior. Yeah. they're willing to admit that they need uh a God. And you know, even yesterday, I I prayed with a guy who's just he was so broken. And one of our security guards, this is what I really love about our church is one of our security guards brought him over to ask for prayer. And this guy, he had just lost his mother in a car accident. And the trauma for him was she was decapitated. So he's like, I just can't get this out of my head. And then his his brother had attempted suicide but not successful and was an addict but now is in rehab and since rehab has given his life to the Lord still in rehab but he was just broken.

And I'm like okay God uses people like you. And so it was easy [clears throat] to pray for him because I'm like oh I know what's happening right now. Yeah. God wants to use this in your life to grow in intimacy with him. Totally in a way that otherwise I don't wish this upon you and it's okay to grieve and lament and hurt. So, but if you go back 16 years ago, Brandon, to that question you're asking. Yeah. I didn't realize that God uses brokenness and grief and lament, you know what I mean? All those things that now has made Journey Church what it is. I actually just thought like, hey, as long as we're all good and loving Jesus and I mean, such a false fantasy, [laughter] like you don't see it anywhere in the scriptures, in the book of Acts, but in my own fantasy. Totally, you know. So, but I thank God that he didn't give up on me because of my naivity and No doubt. Well, it's crazy

too how the dream changes and it morphs too. Like you didn't have a heart for the presence of God and revival when you first started and now it's like 16 years later you are a revivalist. Yeah. Who wants people to encounter the manifest presence of God. Yeah. You've said as much even just in our staff meetings which I love which you you just met you constantly are clarifying and saying guys this is about us encountering the presence of God. Amen. at the end of which I'm like that if every leader could just have that be their north star. [laughter] Oh my gosh. Of just like hey guys at the b end of the day what this is about is us encountering God and encountering his spirit because he's alive and he is active and he's present and yeah. So that to me is is one of the best parts about being in this team is like okay that's what we're here for.

What's sad about this this uh reality that at Journey Church we promote uh encounters with God. We promote uh the presence of God. You know that when we worship we want the presence of God. Not every Christian longs for that or wants it. And yet my argument would be for the person that doesn't know what that means, an encounter with God or long for the presence of God would be the Bible says that from Genesis all the way to Revelation. I mean really it's like the whole theme of the scriptures is go it's God. The Bible is God's story. It's not man's story. It's God's story. And from the beginning God made man in the garden to dwell with him. Yes. And sin is what screwed that up. And the whole redemption story is one day we get to be fully present with God again.

And then throughout the Bible, that's the most like momentous stories are those who encounter God. Totally. You know, those who, you know, it's the the Moses stories, the Elijah stories, the Abraham story. Even better, like the Enoch stories. He walked with God and was not. Yeah. What a testimony. Like just put that on my gravestone, you know? [laughter] So like that that is an encounter and the presence of God. And I think if you get too busy of just wanting to know more about God and not want God, I think we miss it, right? You know, and I I do think there is a distraction in this world of trying to figure things out versus just wanting more of God. Yeah. And and I I know for me for years it's like I was just distracted with maybe the wrong things. Yeah.

But I do believe God put inside every one of us for revival. the more I long for it, the more I realize like, oh, revival is inside of each of us. Even though I think some people are afraid to actually say it out loud, and now I'm not afraid to say it. Yeah. Just say what God put inside of you. Yeah. He put revival inside of you. And here's here's what I mean by this, and I would love to hear your guys' take on this as well. Jesus brought forth revival through his death, burial, and resurrection. And the whole purpose of the ascension was revival. He said, "It's good that I go." Well, why is it good that he goes so that now [clears throat] God who was in the flesh who could only be in one place, God who is omnipresent can be anywhere at any time. Therefore, we can have revival because of the Holy Ghost,

the Holy Spirit through Jesus. So, revival actually was birthed in Acts chapter 2 when the fulfillment of that promise happened. And I think we're made for that. And I think when we fall short of longing for it or prophesying it or wanting it for every generation, it's like we have fallen short of like the gospel. I mean, this is like no doubt. The gospel is not for some. We the the mandate of Jesus is go make disciples of all the nations. That's revival. Totally. Well, for like the the guys that are more academic uh in their approach, I'm like, how do you reconcile 2 Corinthians 13:14? May the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you all. That's what you're talking about. Yeah. With you all. I don't And so I don't understand. And we all I do it. We like we like to um pick our favorite verses and avoid the

ones that we don't like. But I'm like that one is always staring you right in the face when you're wrapping up second Corinthians. My wife Kara calls that, you [clears throat] know, theological gymnastics. Totally. You know, you're just you're tumbling and you're jumping over the stuff that you don't like those who want to skip over Mark 16. Yeah. You know what? So, we we can't cast out demons and heal the sick, right? That how come Jesus didn't quantify or qualify that that was for the first generation, you know, the [laughter] totally, you know, first century. Uh, yes. How would you describe revival? Um, I think it's it's what we're seeing. Yeah. in in multiple layers even across the country is there's a there is a there's a few things happening at once there's a deep desire in the I think across generations not just Gen Alpha and Gen Z but we're seeing this deep desire for like that thing you're talking about that we have built in us that wants more

we're seeing it because we've never had more stuff ever than we have now [clears throat] so many options right we've got literally we're without excuse when it comes to knowledge and information we've got everything at our fingertips and the the reality that it's like, "Oh, this is not it." has never been more powerful. And so there's I think the the Holy Spirit is like moving. God is moving in this cuz he's like, "Yeah, I know. I knew that you guys would get to this point." And we I don't even think you say it often about like we don't even know what this is going to look like. But we but our hearts yearn for this thing that we know is like right here. We know that. And it's an awakening. It's it's it's an awakening to like oh, it's it's just you. It's intimacy with you. And nothing is wrong for longing for something you don't know what it will look like. Totally.

You know, the longer I'm married, the more I realize like I want more in my marriage. I love falling in love with my wife again and again. I love that our best days of intimacy emotionally, sexually, relationally are not in our earliest days. But I can say, "Oh man, I'm so grateful." Because the moment I I lose that and I I I I'm no longer intrigued by, you know, what the world would even call romance, but God designed the covenant marriage not to be boring, but to model the relationship we have with him. Totally. You know, so to actually say, "Oh, God, I want to be touched by you. I want to love you more than I've loved you. I want to be loved by you more." What's wrong with that? [laughter] Totally. No doubt. And then when that shows up in a form, and I think this is what scares people,

that is outside of your control, that's what starts to bother people. And you know, we're not saying we want barking or laughing or rolling on the ground. It might come in the stillness of like awe and wonder. Yeah. Well, take it take it away even from the corporate gathering. Yeah. Why wouldn't you want to experience the raw tangible presence of God in your own home? Say it. Like why wouldn't you want to steward that? Paul called himself a steward of the mysteries of Christ. Why would you not in your own home want to be going after God? Yeah. Like I just I just I don't understand this. We make everything so central to the church. We are the church. Like let's steward oil at home. Yeah. Yeah. Come on. Totally. Like let's get back to let's get back to that. And then from there there's Sunday morning. I mean I I feel like we're all doing what we're doing because we've had those encounters with God along the way.

Not just one along the way. And I'm like, if I don't have that, I'm not I'm out. Totally. I mean, it's Revelation, too. It's like we can do all those things anyway. And then we we take our eyes off where he's like, "Hey, this was always about intimacy with you and me." Like, you guys have done all these things. You've c you've you've you've found these people who have claimed to be apostles. You've, you know, you've you've used discernment. You've used all these things and you've missed the bottom line, which is intimacy with you. So, you're talking about Jesus talking to the church and Jesus, he has some harsh things to say about that. Y I mean, but it's real. He loves us enough to say you think you got it, but you don't got it. PK, let me ask you because your journey is so unique and that the Holy Spirit has guided you along the way even to where the church is today.

Yeah. What did it take for you even to come to that place and posture of humility saying however many years ago that was now, I need you, Holy Spirit. What I'm doing is not sustainable. Well, Kara and I have talked a lot about that on this podcast. It's just a part of our story. You know, sometimes it feels like, oh man, all I do is retell the same story. Well, because it's our story. And it really hit for us in 2022 when when we both really hit rock bottom and we're ready to run. You know, it's like becoming clear in our language. Like the more we tell the story, it's like the more raw and like, okay, we were going to run. But we didn't know, we didn't know how or what it was going to look like. All we knew is, you know, there's the fight or flight when it

comes to trauma, right? and we were kind of like done with the fight because at that point in our our our personal journey here at Journey Church, you know, we had been through the pandemic of 2020, 2021 and in the state of Oregon and all that was happening. It was just it was so much happening uh spiritually, emotionally, relationally. We had lost so many people who had moved out of town, out of out of state. So many people had changed churches because we weren't meeting. I mean, all of these stuff, right? The same stuff. But internally there was our staff wasn't unified like we are right now. We weren't uh on the same page of the future of Journey Church and uh we frankly there were some huge crisis things like we had sold our building in 2020 and it had closed and so we had made like over a million bucks on the building but we had no place to meet so

we were looking for a new building and so that was stressful. We weren't even meeting as a church. You know, you want to talk about like do not despise small beginnings. I was talking to Care about this. You know how many churches in our city shut down during that time? At least a half dozen. And some of them were significant churches. I mean, the reason we're even in this building is that church shut down that was meeting in the space that we're renting right now. But we were looking for a space and we weren't unified in that. I would find a space I loved. And then another pastor that was on staff at the time, he was my executive pastor. He was like, "No, I wouldn't I didn't like that." And so we were just kind of at odds. Then eventually we bought this land that I was just like I couldn't really see the vision of it. And even more it was like there was like all kinds of stuff happening at the church. We were having people die like literally, you know, and I was doing like memorial service, you know, celebration of life after one

after another. It was older people, younger people. It was like it was just like emotionally I was looking okay on the outside. So I was still leading as a lead pastor. I was still looking okay. I was still preaching Jesus, preaching the Bible, but I wasn't okay in my soul. I was [clears throat] like, I was drained. I was like, I didn't know how to lead my family well at all. I had a bulged disc in 2021 that just I was still healing from. So, physically, I was not good. Emotionally, I wasn't good. Relationally, I wasn't good. In my marriage, uh my family wasn't doing great. You know, I wasn't leading them real well. And then I was trying to lead the church. So I'm coming to your question about how did I get to this place of really wanting to encounter the Holy Spirit more. So we had a a consultant in our church who was supposed to help us raise money to build a building, but instead he came alongside and helped Karen and I get reset in our vision.

And that was actually his language. When I came to him, I just kind of spilled my guts. He didn't really know me. I didn't really know him. We're supposed to raise all this money for the church. And so I told him, I said, "I'm not going to do this." and he looked me in the eyes and he said, "That's okay." And you know, that could probably be one of the most spiritual things we could say to somebody. [laughter] That's okay. That's okay. It's going to be okay. Like it's, you know, like not fix it or anything. And you know, he just he just was like, "Every pastor gets to the place where you are." And I was like, "What?" He's like, "Yeah, every pastor." He's like, "I've been a senior pastor. You know, I've worked with so many senior pas they all get to this place." And at the moment, I didn't really believe him, but he kind of held my hand through the season. I was like, "It's okay, you know, go go find it. Go go go get okay, you know, figure this out." He pretty much laid out he he always drew on napkins. And he was like, "Let's just

look at four options." I get you paper right now. Yeah. [laughter] He would just draw on napkins. And he would he would be like, "Option one, you do what you're going to say you're going to do." You know, like, well, okay, God could bless that, but is that the right one? You know, look what you've done here. You know, it's like, look what you built. Do you really want to give this up? Okay, just do what you're going to do. You know, I'm like, okay, I like that option. you know, like number two though, you know, he's like, "What if you stayed and God blessed it?" You know, like what if this happened? I'm like, "Okay, you know, and he's like, "Ooption three, what if you left and the church blessed it?" You know, like, and I'm okay. You know, like he so he gave me all these options like, "All right, what if you did all these?" And then we got connected with the father's house down in Vakavville at the same time. I thought it was January of um 2022, but we met with Pastor Dave when he was here and he it was March of

2022. So, I was like, "Ah, okay." So, it was March of 2022. And uh that's when I remember my wife's eyes just streaming with tears the entire church service when we went and visited there. And I think that was like the the beginning of saying, "We want a presence driven church." Come on. Because that's the language of the father's house in Vakavville. Yeah. Was it like Kara was having an an encounter? She it was like from the moment it's the church service started to the end she she cried the whole service. She had never experienced anything like that. It's what I tried to emulate. And you know brothers like cuz I got like two brothers in the room. Uh you know like you always want your wife to kind of be pleased with what you're doing. Yeah. Totally. You know like I don't know it's like something in you like you just want to be a man you know like and if she says it's okay it's really okay. like a thousand people can tell you it's okay,

but if you're chief signed off on it, [laughter] so we're good. But if she and so I think my whole ministry, I just wanted her to be okay. And it's like it was like at that point I realized like things are not good. And so when we got away for 3 months, we had all these rules that Rob was the name of the the consultant. Rob gave us all these rules. We weren't allowed to watch Journey Church online. We weren't allowed to talk to anyone from Journey. We weren't allowed to look at anything for Journey. I couldn't look at the I mean we weren't allowed to do anything for journey for three months. Wow. Nothing for three months. The only purpose for three months was to seek the Lord. So we got in the word of God every day. We prayed together every day and we went to church every Sunday. And my wife and I sat together in church for the first time. And so those were the things that started to lead us to your question. And forgive me that was a long answer.

Sorry. uh to to get to this place of discovering what we want and we want more of God. Come on. And so instead of running from where we were, God renewed our vision for this and gave us at the time for me personally a Joshua Caleb spirit united my wife and I for the first time in church and all of a sudden we started sitting together in church. We started praying together at home. It comes back to what you said about revival. If you're not doing it in your home, Yeah. you're not doing it at church. It's not that Karen and I never prayed. It's not that we never did those things, but we didn't do it consistently. Yeah. And now I could say we do it consistently all the time. And so that was the beginning of the end for us is just inviting the Holy Spirit. So when we came back, people are like, who are you? Like what what happened? You know, and some people were very attracted to it, right? And like I want that. Yeah.

Other people were like, okay, you're getting a little crazy. Peace. I'm out. You know? Well, you know what I love about I love it about you, too, but in part like [clears throat] what you're just saying about um Pastor Kara, what I love about her is and Brandon and I have talked about this since the first time I met her. So, I was like you can just sense a sensitivity that she has to the Holy [clears throat] Spirit, which is it's like scripture says women are our a wife is is a helper, you know, and that like we don't like really understand what that represents. And the Holy Spirit's called totally. And um [laughter] Amen. And so I but I just love seeing like she is in many ways like a barometer for this church. And oh I can't tell you how many times during worship I feel like I feel like I don't know if God's moving like in a settle and I'll look over and there's pastor Kira crying worshiping. I'm like okay.

Yeah. Which I think as as men it's like we have we have our own moments like where all three of us have had like our weepy moments before the Lord. Uh and it's not to say that they're less common. It's just different. It's different to like look at the the mom of the house, you know, and see and and to Pastor Brandon's question to you, uh, just surrounding all this because I know that you've even said as much that prior to 2022, I mean, God has just brought you on this journey of like his tangible presence and how it's impacted your life. Um, and I just think too like so much of a benefit PB and I have like grown up in charismatic circles, right? I was going to mention that. So you guys knew it because you were in Pentecostal type circles. I grew up in the vineyard, was around that stuff. I know Brandon was around that uh around that. And so we've seen it and it you when you're around it enough like anything like you start to

you develop your own lens of critique or you know like I really value is it authentic or totally is it being emulated from what someone saw? Yes. And I don't even know if I've said this to you. Maybe I have said this to you, but what I love about being under your leadership and also just watching where you're like where you're at with your own intimacy with the Lord is, you know, coming from the charismatic movement, there's a lot of stuff that you were just like, you know, there's so much to be blessed from it. There's so much goodness that's come from that movement in the in the west, but that some of it you're just like, "Yeah, but uh some things not so great, you know, and looking now is there we Journey Church does not have this storied history of like, hey, signs and wonders and all this crazy stuff, you know, happening with the Lord." It's come at this like staggered, you know, time where the Lord's like, "No, I'm working with you and the vision I put in your heart

and now there's this." And you don't have to actually deal with all this baggage that has come from it. that and the Lord is endorsing this all along the way. Like you're not we're not trying to like put a mega phone and let everybody else know, hey, totally like the Holy Spirit is endorsing and sovereignly kissing. Come on. What we're putting our hand to. And let's just talk about the fruit five, six years later. Like pursuit nights are insane. Come on. Pursuit Sunday mornings. Like I just think about my kids. Yeah. All that matters really to me and I know probably to all of us my our children. I want my kids to have an encounter with Amen. God. Yes. And my kids love going to church. Amen.

They want to be at pursuit. They want to be there Sunday morning. And that's the fruit of of 2022. Look where we're at now. Amen. You are hosting the presence of God. And people from other states are coming in. Yes, they're coming in and prophetically endorsing what God's doing. It's crazy. Just yesterday, just talking to people, I mean, I talked to several people from out of state that Journey Church is their their connection, their home, their I mean, one gal I met from San Diego. It's just she just looked at me in tears. She's like, I'm I'm here three, four, five times a year just specifically. I want to be here in person, but I'm here all the time with you guys. And she's she's telling me all her family from all over the world from the east coast. She's like I think it was a brother in Abu Dhabi who connects

with us. She's like you guys are literally impacting the world. I talked to another guy from North Carolina. He's like literally he's like I've got a home in North Carolina, California and Ben. And he's like uh I've I've been to a lot of churches and he says there's nothing like Journey. And I'm like you know people say nice things. Thank you. Thank you. He got full of tears. He's like I'm serious. Not by power, not by might. Yes, it's there's something happening. It's the spirit of God. Totally. Amen. Which makes it even better because then you're just like great. Like when people tell you that there's not this like, oh shoot, like we need to like really keep keep our momentum going. It's like no, bro. It's this is this is the Holy Spirit. It's not about us. That we we can't manufacture this, but we can long for it. We can invite it. We can ask God for it. And I'm so grateful for what God is doing here. Like it's the don't despise small beginnings. And I think a big part of it is just not giving up.

Yeah. Oh, that's when you don't feel it, when you don't see it. You know, we we were talking right before this podcast started about just some of the negative comments people make on um on comments and emails and we were referencing one from last week when Pastor Noah uh preached and a guy criticized healing. He criticized um oh what was he uh prosperity uh just all these kind of things. And I I told my wife, I was like, first of all, to have the the grit to take time and type it out. Yeah. Okay, you've got the energy to do that and you know, you're never coming back or whatever. So, like, okay, you got all that energy, but it's direct in the wrong places. Like, how sad. And here's was his point. He's like, if you don't show the proof of that miracle, I don't believe it happened.

I'm like, he talked about two scans. Why does he have to show it to you? Right? I was like, "If you don't believe it, that's on your faith. That's not on the preacher. That's not on the testimony." I'm like, "That to me is a sad faith that has the energy to do this and not the energy to believe that it can happen." Like, how many healings have been forfeited because you didn't believe? How many I mean, and I'm I'm talking about a critic here, even though like the critics don't suck the life out of me anymore. We were talking about this beforehand. We're like, "You What's the ones that sting?" And I'm like, they don't sting quite as much anymore. Like they might even get my blood pressure going or my heart racing, but within minutes I'm calmed down. And I'm like, this person doesn't matter. Jes, the only person that matters is pleasing the Lord.

You know, and you hit this so hard at the beginning of this pod. When you come before the Lord, that's what matters. Yeah. not the person that types out like because if you listen to the critics, here's what it really comes down to and I I'll be really curious to hear both of your takes on this because both of you have different backgrounds even outside the church world. That fear of man is so huge that I think the devil would love us to cling to to try to please man versus the fear of God and the awe of God. And it is not natural to have the fear of God because he's invisible and you can't see him. Whereas, man, the emails, the comments, the [laughter] the reviews, the voicemails, right? You know, those are real, you know. So, you actually have to fight that demonic spirit of,

you know, the religious spirit, if you will, the fear of man versus the fear of God. No doubt. Can you guys relate in your lives where, you know, you're trying to please man versus pleasing God? [laughter] How much time do you have? Yeah, you could you could go first. Yeah. I mean, uh, for sure it was the short answer. Um, I feel like I've not I mean I I don't know to what degree I would like to say I've been totally deliberative of that. That's not the case. There's moments where it flares up, but certainly as um my intimacy with the Lord grows and as I as I gain a it's like he's ineffable. It's like there we're never going to like we were just talking about this, we'll never we're never going to figure it out. But the more that I come to know him and how he views us and how, you know, we're to view others, the the less um that fear of man voice, come on, speaks or has weight there, like you said, there's moments like where you can feel your heart elevate and you're like, but then you

just speak to that inner man. You're like, hey, whom do we serve here? Amen. Yeah. And so that is definitely lessened. Um and then it gives you it it actually lets you see what's what in front of you. because that's such a chaotic like confusing lens to view things through. And then when you but when you're at peace because of who he is, then you're able to see people in those moments of criticism. Like it's like the guy who writes that I'm like all that's going through my head is, you know, I didn't come up with this. This is a very used phrase, but it's like all criticism is the result of unmet needs. So I'm like looking at him thinking, say that again. All criticism is the result of unmet needs. So So let's talk about this guy. He wants to be healed. He wants that power. He wants the prosperity and then actually and he wants to know it's real. Yeah. And so it's easier to criticize it than to surrender to it. Yeah. Yeah. Totally.

Well, and what does what does surrender look like? Totally. That'd be my quote. What does surrender look like? Yeah. That's what's hard for people. The surrender which actually makes our hearts tender. Yeah. Which breaks off the fear of man, which is the fear of the Lord. It's the surrender to the Holy Spirit. Can you relate to the fear of man? Oh my gosh. [laughter] Give give us an example where oh I mean come on I I I'm 41 41 years of exper I for me yes and to me the remedy is what what we're talking about it's intimacy it's fellowship with the Holy Spirit and it's not a I'm I'm intimate today so I'm good to come on surrender cuz it can slip in quick one person's comment can be like oh wait I'm reverting back to old behaviors

thousand%. So I think between I think it's twofold. It's the renewing of the mind. Romans 12:2. [clears throat] Yeah. But it's this constant abiding in the vine. The moment where I'm no longer surrendered. Yeah. To intimacy with the Holy Spirit and allowing him to lead me. Not not the reverse. Yeah. That's when I get in trouble. But as long as my posture is one of surrender, my gosh, what can't God do? Yeah. And that's better understood too even like if we simplify more is surrender is release of what of what we think we're controlling. Yes. And we I've I know we've said this many times but it's like control is the antithesis of relationship. And the Lord is all about relationship with us. And as soon so he's like hey I need you to let go of the things you think you're controlling.

No doubt. I need to you need to let go of your your your perception here [laughter] that you think you're controlling and submit to the the truth which is that in me you live and move and have your very being. So let's move from that place. So to to stick on this theme for a moment of the fear of man, the fear of God and criticism, if we even go biblically like back to Genesis all the way through Revelation to present day to the coming of Jesus, this only happens because the enemy wants to intimidate. And opposition is is is the uh direct result of the movement of God. And I think opposition can either stop uh the work of God in your life. Yeah. or fuel the work of God in your life. Say it.

Because if you got no opposition, if there is no critics, you you're not making a sound. That's right. [laughter] Nobody cares. Nobody if if if if nothing's happening in your life, you haven't really ticked off the enemy, right? You know, like I mean, we're joking about the hat thing. Well, nobody even sees the hat thing. if you're not even wearing that, you know, it's like stupid example, but uh no, nobody will criticize your preaching if you're not preaching, you know, like when God's moving, there will be opposition. And by the way, sometimes we need to learn from critics. Sometimes we'll say something. It's like, okay, is there something I can learn? There was a nugget in there. Yeah, there was a truth, you know, okay, I can do this differently or I can learn from this. So, I don't want to just throw the baby out with the bath water. But I also, you know, sticking with the theme of what we've been learning this summer and with Zechariah 4, when the opposition comes, it halted the construction of the temple.

Yeah. For years. Yeah. You know, more than a decade goes by because of criticism, right? And it reminds me of uh Nehemiah and who are the two bros? Le sand ballot and the other guy. We just talked about this. Yeah. you know, the guys that are criticizing Nehemiah, you know, on the wall like, "Hey, that a fox can't even stand on that wall. It's going to fall down." You know, it's like I mean, it's like the devil's tactics are not new. Yeah. He's a heckler. He's a Yeah. He's a discourager. That's a good way to put it. And And it's typically it's laced in religion or trying to stop any move of God. Yeah. If God is moving, if God is building, whether it's the wall or the temple or the kingdom or the church today, the enemy, I think, wants to slow it down. And and do it through discouragement, right? You know, and just get in your head. Yeah.

You know, but here's how you know it's God is it's edifying to the body. Come on. Yes. You know, it's edifying. It's building you up. It's man, you did. I mean, I think about that guy that wrote the email. I hate to camp on it cuz here's the truth. I didn't even read the email. My wife told me all about it yesterday. She's [laughter] like, she's like, "Did you read the email?" I'm like, "What email?" She's like, "Well, said this, that, and the other." Too long, did not read. Yeah. I'm like, "I'm not going to read that." You know, but uh I forget where I was going to go with that. I was going to say something so important, guys. Well, to your to your point though, cuz it's not just the encouragement for me and where you're going doesn't just come from surrendering to the Holy Spirit. We need each other. Yeah. Amen. The community. Oh, that's what I was going to say. Yeah. Okay. They're teed up. Boom. had that guy use the same energy to say something positive. Oh my gosh.

Like, wow, what a youthful church. Wow, what an awesome opportunity. Wow, this was Imagine if he just found something positive to say, right? [clears throat] That the the proclivity to be open to listen now was going to be more uh open. That's, you know, what I was going to No doubt. Just if you say something nice to me now, I actually want to hear what you have to say. Totally. Oh, thousand%. Cuz you know that you're for me. Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. Sounds so elementary and simple. Oh, it's not. It's for even amongst church leaders. I mean, I go back to thinking about Paul three or four times in first Corinthians. He said, "Any [clears throat] authority I have, it's just for your edification, bro. Go there." Like what would happen to your point if the church from the top down

everything we gave our life to was for the edification for encouraging the building up of the body and not empty words I mean it's like min that's deep ministry right there what would what would happen but it's such a foreign I think there I think there's a larger thing going on I do believe there's this spirit I mean everybody's like a keyboard theologian and warrior and there's this divisive thing and So obviously I think prayer breaks the back of that, but I do think brothers and sisters coming together under that Psalm 133 umbrella and being like, "Whatever it costs me for you, I'm going to make sure you win." Unity. Come on, man. Yeah. We're going to be savagely for each other. Come on. I think that's what the secret sauce of our staff right now is we're unified cuz we build each other up. You know, in a staff meeting, we we can go around and we can spend hours just prophesying, building, let's go.

[laughter] we could pray and and it doesn't get old like and if you're going to be on this team, you got to build each other up. You got to and it's why we have the champion belt here. You got to champion other people. You got to you got to speak life into them. You know, it's [clears throat] too easy to call out what's not there. Well, let's call out what's in you. The potential that I see in you that that's what God that's how God's going to change a generation instead of the the older generation always criticizing the younger to actually say something is in you. That's right. that's going to change the world. So, do you So, just thinking like to any any people who you know because you have an apostolic calling on your life to anybody who's listening who is who feels a similar calling. Wow. If you're like talking to them and they're listening because we know we know they're out there to me I'm thinking like okay like so if you could give wisdom to them of like

hey you're here let me let me distill this and tell you this is where you need to start cuz in my mind right now I'm just thinking I mean you've and you've lived it for 16 years with for this church and laid it down. But my mind immediately goes to man if I could just tell the team like hey you guys have got to be for each other like you've never been for anybody in your life. Yes. you know, and that is your like besides intimacy with the Holy Spirit, which is like you that's it that you look at each other and you're like, man, I want I want Hannah to win more than anything in the world. Like when [clears throat] when Hannah go whenever something good happens with Hannah and we talk about it. That's right. Without in the room, everybody. So, yeah, she's right over to my left. Uh or anything with Cali, you know, it's like my heart for me, for anybody like when I hear something good is I'm like, "Bro, let's go." You know what I mean? Like, let's go. like let's go shout it from the let's

announce it from the stage. I I I the truth is like okay I went off on that. No, this is so good. If we think about revival as a whole and let's just say revival is like a 2,000 piece puzzle or 10,000 piece puzzle. You're talking about one of the key pieces of this puzzle, which I do believe it's going to be not about me, but when I try to build up others, when I try to encourage others, when I try to pray for others, when I try to uh lay hands on others, when I try to uh prophesy, when I believe in others, something more is going to happen. M when because it's no longer about me. So part of discovering God's calling in your life is not even about you. It's serving other people. And when you serve other people, they feel built up and they'll be blessed by you. Amen. And then God honors you. It's like he takes the humble and he he exalts them. He He lifts them up. And

I I really do like if if all we do is criticize, which is easy to criticize. It's easy to see what's wrong in other people. No doubt. And yourself. it it hinders the revival or you even worse yourself is is that's even worse and I think it does a disservice to God. It does a disservice [clears throat] to you to not believe God's best o over you. And I know others would say the opposite like, "Oh, you're you're a sinner. Dwell on the sin." And didn't Paul say that he's the worst of sinners? Absolutely. He just didn't dwell on it. Yeah. And yeah, we we have a hard time saying to ourselves, "Oh, actually, I'm the righteousness of God in Christ." It's like we have such a hard time with that. Yeah. So, so go ahead and admit you're the worst of sinners. And now say who you are. In Christ because that phrase in Christ is like his favorite saying. In

Christ, in Christ all, you know, all things are in Christ, you know, all spiritual blessing, inheritance, all the things that come with it. And I do think you know that you answered your own question in that apostolic and which if I could just even speak on that word apostolic I would say like pre2022 phrases like apostolic were like dirty words to you to me I was afraid to say it because I didn't know what it meant. I didn't understand it. I had no context of it. And so if I saw someone who was Pentecostal or something on the crazy spectrum and they use that kind of language, it's like that's why I don't want to be that. Sure. Totally. You know, that's weird. And it's like I'm not even going to study it. I'm not even going to try to understand it. Therefore, I won't say it.

And then if somebody, let alone be it, especially [laughter] be it. Totally. And now it's like I'm unashamed because if the Bible says it, why wouldn't we study the Bible, learn it, and grow in it? You know, Ephesians 4 talks about it. God gave apostles. I'm not ashamed of this. He gave apostles, prophets, uh, pastors, uh, uh, teachers. I'm missing one. Evangelists, you know, like all of those things. Why would we talk about pastors and evangelists today and let's leave out the prophets and the, uh, apostles? Yep. That word apostle means uh, the the one who sent, right? And, you know, so this idea of apostolic is, okay, is no longer just about me preaching, right, or teaching or prophesying. I want to send others out. That is that's it. Which is which is literally your heart. It's literally it's it's who you are.

And and people don't people don't understand that word to your point. And really the apostle, the apostolic individual, they're the first person to die. Yeah. Because you are essentially this person who is serving. It's your your platform as a launching pad for everyone else. Like it this this word apostle is not about something you can put on your business card. No. And which it casually kind of gets dropped and thrown around which is the unappealing part. Totally. But in reality it's naturally about laying your life down serving people and building people. Like what is building the kingdom? It's building people. It's the life of God. The Zoe life of God. And I can tell you I'm here today. He's here today. Be Callie's here today. Hannah is in the room because this is who you are.

Well, thank you. This is who this is who you are. It's humbling and all I desire is the best. Totally. Which makes it easy for us. No doubt. Well, and I I see it in both of you because you're such elite leaders and both of you, by the way, are such encouragers. You're the Barnabases of the house where you you make everybody feel better. Even these two women in the room with us right now, the elite calling like there's there's very few women that will uh rise. My wife is one of them too, but a lot of women don't believe it about themselves. Like there's women CEOs. Who's that woman that led the computer company for a while? She ran for president. Um Oh, yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. No, no, no. But Sarah Palin's a good one from Alaska. That's a strong woman right there. But, uh, when you when you actually believe that I can do what a guy can do, and I'm unashamed of this because somehow women have been

oppressed under this view that cuz I do believe, let me just be really clear, men and women have roles. I believe in sexuality. There's only a male and a female. And I believe a man's supposed to be the head of his home, that he's supposed to be a leader. But I also believe that women have been so oppressed that they don't have the potential to to excel in the areas God created them to excel in. Mhm. So, forgive me for my verbal processing as I'm flushing this out because I'm thinking about two young women in this room who are still in their 20s. And to think out 20 years from now, I'm like, "Oh my goodness, all I want to do is speak life into them." Totally. And to say, "God's just getting started." Yeah. I mean, just just getting started. And so, I do believe that it is our role now is to to build up this church and we

have so many young people here. It's why uh if maybe we should have started with introductions today, [laughter] 45 minutes into this podcast, uh Pastor Connor here, everybody uh has just been appointed to start a college at this church. Let's go. And the whole reason, Connor, that I want to do that is my heart is broken because we have built up some young people in this church and now they're leaving to other cities, to other churches, to other colleges to get that equipping. And I'm like, no, let's do it here. Yes. Yeah. I mean, you're like loving on these kids and like you're being like the father to some of these kids and then at 18, 19, 20 years old, they're going across the country to go they they're they're called and I am so freaking excited about

what's to cometally with Kingdom College at Journey to say we're going to build the kingdom here one saint at a time. Yeah. And it's just like looking and that starts from an introspection of like what do we have here in house like across the board from leadership from spiritual um like from a from a spiritual dynamic to you know just basic leadership skills to all these deeper things and we've got we've we've got it we you say it all the time we've got an elite team facts and now when this team like is in unified I take I take your experience I take your experience yours yours yours all of a sudden when we give that away y oh my god that's And that's so good. That is the greatest ROI emotionally, spiritually is being able to give your life away like more than standing in front.

When we be when you transition from being a platform driven church to a presence-driven church, the fruit it's it's not just about amen, we want encounter. It's that ministry that wineskin moves to building people. Yes. And there's no I've stood on stages in front of 5,000 7,000 people. Nothing is more rewarding than being able to connect one-on-one with an individual and watch their life change because you just spoke hope and prophetic destiny and purpose over nothing nothing compares to that. Brandon, can we talk about that for a moment? Cuz it's so huge and this is what my dream would be for Journey Church. I got too many dreams for Journey. Like sometimes I want to explode with it. Like I just I I they're like I really believe God's just getting started. I don't despise where we are right now because God's just getting started. I mean there's so much more.

But to your point about oneon-one and and everything like I I just finished a book called um what's it called? Um it's it's called um it was good. It's so [laughter] good. It's called it's shell. It's just about leadership. Um Oh yeah. You just talked about Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Lead like it matters. Uh lead like it matters. Uh it So what is the it like? Why do it's kind of the good to great mentality. How can you have two products, the exact same products and one is great and makes billions and the exact same product is good but makes a million, you know, like the same products, one's great and one's good. So what is the the it factor of it? And with churches, it's the same thing, you know? How can we say down the street like how come that church has 30 and this church has 3,000? You know what what is it that makes it different?

Because the Holy Spirit's in the little church but it's also in the big churches, right? And as Craig Oelle is explaining the the it. And he calls it it, you know, like what what is it? Like why why why do some churches have it, you know, and driven to it? He talks about the little church and the mega church. In fact, the giga church if we can call it the mega mega church, you know, the difference of them. The the mega mega church has everything for everyone. It has something for the old people. Has something for the families, has something for the singles, has something for the call. It has it has it, right? It has something for everybody. Great music, dynamic preaching, you know, classes for everyone, community group. It's got it. It's got everything for everybody, right? That's the mega church. So, how is the little church still um surviving? Why are they still open?

In fact, let's go so far as to say, why do people leave the mega churches if they have everything, right? He argues like the small church, for example, when you've been a part of that church for a very long period of time, you have a job there. You know, Joe has the keys and opens it up in the morning, you know, um what's an old person name? Um Earl. Earl. Um Earl shows up and makes the coffee. Yeah. You know, I was thinking of a woman's name. Um yeah. Yes. Uh what is it? Ene show Earl and Erlene, you know, he opens the door in the morning, she makes the coffee. They can't leave, right? Because if Erlene leaves, who's going to make the coffee, right, with the folders, you know what I mean?

Everybody's kind of got a job at that church. So, they can't leave because they're they're part of community. Now, why does someone leave a mega church? The exact same reason someone doesn't leave a little church. They're not needed. Wow. No one needs me to open the door, right? No one needs me to make the coffee. Nobody will even know if I leave. Yeah. Which is often true. Yeah. So to me, when I dream of Journey Church and Revival, we grow and we multiply. We plant more churches, but we grow numerically here, too. But the secret sauce is every person is seen, known, and in connection and community. And obviously, I know that we're not there yet. I mean we have people leave and people will say like nobody even knew we left. It's like well the dream would be no we want to equip you in your gifts and we want to unleash you where we are

united. Ephesians 4 you know where you equipped and unleashed where you do actually go pray for that person you know you do lay hands you you do join in community you do you know the work of the ministry here which is what even a college is going to be. It's about equipping them, not with just head knowledge, but it goes from here to here and then it goes out from here. Changes everything. Totally. So that I when you were just talking about the one-on-one, I'm like that's that's revival is oh my gosh. Not a huge group of people just worshiping God and encountering God. It's a huge group of people doing what God says to do. That's right. Yes. They're actually like weeping with each other, praying for each other, you It's like that in our lifetime, I think we've we've gotten to see little pockets of moves like that like Asbury and few other places where it's like, well, what's so unique about this? Well, it's not even the great music, [laughter]

you know, or the sex of buildings or it's like people are praying for each other and people are showing up and you know, it's like it's really powerful. It's when there's a fulfillment of a new commandment. The last thing that's really what I think it is. Love one another as I have loved you. And we and we need revelation on what that is. Say it. And that revelation comes from knowing how loved we are. If we want to get if we want to do cuz I could not agree with you more that it's and some people don't even have like I I've met people where I'm like legitimately thinking you've actually never been like loved. Do you know what I mean? Like they don't even like have a frame of reference for it because it's been so performance-based and so conditional. And so we've got to know how loved we are which I think is what's happening here.

Yeah. is that the Lord is bringing all of us on this journey of like, hey, this is how loved you are. And it's equipping in our hearts to be like, oh, we just get to give this away. And it's not just on a it's not the two minutes. It's like you get caught up in these hour, 2hour prayer sessions at the end of uh of services. And it's like that's giving it away. That's like things that people get marked for the rest of their lives. Amen. And it's like the Billy it's like the next Billy Graham or it's the next, you know, whomever. Well, that's how I felt about this guy I prayed with who lost his mom and his brother. Like, it was it was intimacy. Mhm. Like, you just let me into your story. Y I don't take that for granted. Yeah. And I'm actually going to meet you down there. Yeah. Yeah. This isn't like a uh you know, 10 years ago it was like a quick prayer. Oh, Lord, help this person. Bless this person. Or even I'll be praying for you.

Yeah. No, even worse. And then you leave and you never pray. Totally. You know, but when when you're known and you're loved and I mean, I probably hugged him like six times. Never met him before. Yeah. Like it's just at first he came and cried and I just before I even prayed for him I was like can we just hug? Yeah. Can we just [laughter] That is just so good. Can we just go? You probably taught me this one. Dude, if that's not the heart of God more than you. Uh well, it's just it's just being there. And I I think you're just hitting on that. Like I I that's where revival is going to happen when when people are seen and loved. You know, I grew up in a a country Bible church, like a fundamentalist church actually of all things, but I know you grew up in the country, but more uh charismatic. Yeah. But I think the one thing that like a country folk do really well is just make you feel loved and seen. And so although I wasn't operating in the gifts of the

spirit or have a knowledge of that, I definitely like was loved and was seen, you know, and the way that God shows up when someone sees you and loves you. It it it mark it I I think you said it well. It marks you. Yes. You know, it's you realize like, oh, I'm not the same person. And we're seeing it now. Like, you know, I'm going to totally go rabbit trail on us right here. I love your rabbit trail. Let's go. [laughter] Uh, you know, Conor McGregor, great name. Yeah. Uh, great spelling. The spelling, if you ask me. The spelling. Go ahead. [laughter] C O N O R. That's it. Uh, that's that's the Irish spelling. That is it. Uh, you know, he recently has confessed that he's born again, has given his life to Jesus. Still has a vulgar mouth and um but man, he is like outspoken for Jesus. I mean, like outspoken for Jesus. And he fought on

Saturday a comeback after 5 years of not fighting. And now you see why I almost wanted to spoil it for you. Yeah. Was it you wanted to spoil the injury? Yeah. I was going to tell you like, "Hey PK, this 10 seconds done." I was on I was on a plane and and we were dialoguing about the fights and I'm like, "Don't tell me. Don't tell me. I want to watch it." And uh thankfully I got to watch it the next day without knowing any of these things. But to see his response afterwards, either of you guys see it on social, he's like confessing. He's like, "Listen, my faith in Jesus is so real. It's not about winning. It's not about good times. It's about in the hard times. I know he's still there. I mean, I was just What a world of difference from who he was. Oh my. Good night. You know what I mean? I was just like, this is this is real.

Yeah. There's certain things that are undeniable. Yes. And to me it's like anybody can make an argument but that in his life you're like okay dude we've all watched you and see cuz he's zero filter and just seeing how like readily he throws like he's ready to go at anybody go at their throats totally defend himself and then he goes low in that you're like hello how do you account for that the guy's got 46.6 million followers on Instagram 46.6 6 million on Instagram. That's a few. And he I want to just share what he writes. Let's hear it. My faith is unconditional and I am thankful to get to prove it. My lifestyle changes are permanent and not just until and I am thankful I get to prove it. I am in sin city, Las Vegas

is where he where he is this weekend and remain completely devoid of all sin. I will not open the door and crack even its seal. I am already back to collecting winds in Jesus' name. [laughter] Wow. Bro, you're like, who is this guy? Church was intense today. My heart is heavy, but through Christ, my mind is strong. I am so grateful to see my family fall more in love with God each day. I am a child of God. I am a friend of God. Come on, preach it, Conor. There's never been anything like this in in history as just as time moves on. I mean, this is like this is so good. God makes a way for me where there seems to be no way. I am not a victim of my circumstances. I overcome them. God is at work in me and will and to work his

good pleasure. My youth is being renewed like the like the eagles. In Jesus, I am thoroughly loved, cherished, adored. I walk in divine health. I live supernatural protection. He's a Pentecostal, [laughter] brother. All things work for my good. All things are possible for me because I'm a believer. Surgery, cuz he took out his knee, ripped, I think. Pre uh prehab, I think he meant rehab. Uh return to the martial arts practice. Go again. Final fight to the contract. Please God, I trust in the Lord. Show me your way. Thank you, God. He wrote this just yesterday. We're recording this on a Monday, and he actually had a cool video with it as well, just just about um the resurrection of Jesus. And I'm like, "This is Jesus changing things." I want to know where he went to church on Sunday.

It was Vegas. I mean, what church in Vegas? Where do you think? City Lights. City Lights. City Lights. Church. Uh, Benny gets a lot of, you know, guys like this. Uh, I I would love to know. Can you imagine McGregor rolling into your spot on Sunday? Oh, bro. Oh, so Cali says, "Yes." Uh, I I had a breakfast on Friday with the Phily. Let's go. the one and only the one and only Phily. That dude is blessed. Speaking of apostles, I mean he the man is truly apostolic. Not only him, but his wife Jeie as well. So Kara and I had breakfast with uh Phil Muny. And here's what was cool. He and his wife just continued to share their story. Share their story. Share their story. And uh as he shared his story, there's just so much unbelievable. He planted a church, grew it over 2,000. All this stuff ended

up uh passing the paton on. In fact, I gota we won't go there. Pass the baton on and uh ended up working for Lakewood Church for Joel Ostein, which you know that name has always been kind of a dirty word to me as well. You know, just highly controversial. And I'm like, well, tell us the story of how you met him. You guys want to hear the story? Yes. Say it. So, he's he's leading his church that he planted. He's at three services. Same service times we used to have at three services. 8:30, 10:30, 12:30. Right. And as the story goes, he's telling it, Joe Ostein had never been to another church. He's a pastor's kid, and all he ever knew was his dad's church. So, he grew up at Lakewood every single Sunday. Lakewood, Lakewood, Lakewood, Lakewood.

Never another church. So, he never visited other churches. So, he goes to Orange County, uh Jo, this is Joel Ostein, and I think he was encouraged or whatever the case might be, you need to start visiting other churches. He's like, what churches do you go to? So, he had a church in mind. He was going to visit Orange County. So he goes to Orange County. He asked somebody about this church he was going to visit. They're like, "Yeah, it's over an hour away." And he's like, "An hour away?" So he asked a bellhopper, like a somebody at the hotel, right? Like, "Hey, do you know any good churches?" And he said, "Phil Muny's church." [laughter] They had never met before. Now Phil tells the story this way. The the day he comes to visit, they're doing this big day with hot dogs and all this like cheesy stuff that we do as churches, you know, like to entice people. They're doing hot dogs, right? All this stuff. And that's the day that uh Joel and his wife Victoria come to church and they come to the 8:30 service and he's like, "Think about this. We've been promoting

this." He's like, "Nobody's going to come to the 8:30 to eat hot dogs. Everybody's going to come to the two ladder service." But that's the church he's coming to the service. So he's like, you know, I'm doing what pastors do. He's like, I'm in the front row and I'm not feeling it. I'm not even sure I believe, but I'm trying to fake it to make it, you know, to try to woo the people behind me because there's nobody there that day, you know. He's like worshiping. He and then someone comes over and says, "Hey, Joe Ostein's here today." He's like, "What?" And he looks over and he's there, you know, and he's like, "That's how they met." Wow. You know, and and he's going around and he said [laughter] he he gives him a tour of this facility and he's so impressed. He takes him in the nursery and they've got like these two bunk beds so you could have like four babies at you at the same time. He's like, "Isn't this beautiful?" And you know, Joel's like, "This is great. This is awesome." you know, and then like he says when they opened up uh what is the place they

have now? Lakewood, you know, the um arena, you know, they're in the very first Sunday they were there, they had 973 babies. Good night. 973 babies that first day. And he's like he's like I was so impressed to show Joel my nursery. [laughter] But that's such such organic relationship. It's authentic. It's not about 973 babies, right? You know, it's about a genuine authentic relationship, you know, and it's it's about connecting and and and and giving away what you have. And that's the partnership that they have. It's what Phil's doing with us now. Yeah. He doesn't even know us from Adam. And he's just giving away. So true. Just giving. It's so true. How many years has he been with uh Joel? 24 years.

I think about the longevity of relationship. How rare that is. Come on. If you can be in relationship with someone for 25 years, serve another individ for 25 years. Older I get, I'm into longevity, man. Yep. That's the stuff. That's there's that's fruit. Yes. That's fruit. And it goes back to what we said earlier. What are you going to give your life to? Come on. We live right now in a world of social media and YouTube and internet of saying what's wrong with everyone, right? I mean, that's like I I would hate to have the name Joe Ostein because that name gets so ripped to shreds, right? By brothers and sisters in Christ. And they're all justified. Oh man. Like people like take that energy. Yeah. And do something good with it. That's right.

Like share the gospel. pray for people like even if you if you're right, you could be so wrong in the way you know like the methodology, we're living in such a a critical time that now's not the time for us to like just say what's wrong with everything in the world, you know? It's crazy like the world I don't think they need a mirror. I think everybody's pretty aware like to even even if they're like lying, everybody knows. So it's like who's going to go and do the opposite. I will. Yeah, I'm in. Let's do it. Me, too, bro. Go there. I'm with you. Let's do the opposite. That's why you want to call the our future podcast Edify Room. The Edify Room. PB. What? The Edify [laughter] Room. Is there an innuendo here on this team?

Oh, [laughter] this is what we do all the time, by the way, is laugh. What's the innuendo? Edify. No, he was calling it the ER. [laughter] Oh, the ER. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. But I looked and I was like, cuz it was his idea. He's like, "What about the edify room?" So I looked at you and you're like, "Oh, it was your idea." But he he loves it. Oh, okay. I love the young pastors, but I I don't know. So what we're doing is folks, we're dreaming about a future podcast. And if you got any idea of clever names where we could just do what we're doing right now, no criticism, only suggestions. Edifying. Let's go. Let's [laughter] go. Oh, that's so good. Yeah. To your point though, man, the greatest leaders, they treat everything in their life like it's day one, and it never gets old.

Think about day one when you woke up with your spouse after you said, "I do." The next day, how many times did you criticize your wife? Day one. No, no, no, no. You're you jump you jump into a brand new job day one. How many times you run around start gossiping and criticizing the workplace about day one? It never happens. No. It's when you get familiar, comfortable. Familiarity breeds contempt if you let it. Yeah. And to your point, the people who criticize, perspective is what differentiates a leader and everyone else and people that can lock in everything we're going everything we've been talking about today. Surrender yielded to the Holy Spirit. Amen. And then that perspective small like don't despise the day of what was the one translation that you said how dare you. What what was that?

NIV of all things. Was it really? Yeah. I mean, I don't have my Bible on here. Let me look it up. Despise small beginnings. I love that because it's got a little tone to it, you know, and normally the NIV is kind of the safer translation, but let me let me go there. It's the uh Zechariah 4 and we're in verse 10. We're in verse 10. So, I'm going there. My translation I have by default is the ESV just because it's a literal translation. It's a great version. But uh we go to the verse 10. No, it's not the NIV. Who dares despise the day of small things? Okay. Yeah. Who dares? Who dares? Yeah. It still has a tone to it. Yeah. Yeah. Who dares despise the small? First service though. You were like, "How dare you?" Yeah. First you said, "How [laughter] dare you?

How dare you despise the small beginning?" And I feel like that like when a critic comes to us and and and tries to say, "How dare you say that healings happened? How dare you say that God will bless that? How dare, you know, it's like, uh, uh, because God, I'm going to rejoice that God's going to do it. I'm going to see this finished. He's going to put the top stone on it. I'm going to shout grace, grace to it. So, we're going to shout. That's Zechariah 4. This is like just the most powerful chapter, you know, just God pointing out the anointing, the oil in that chapter. It's it's not about you you already quoted as Zechariah 4:6. It's not by might. Come on. It's not by power. It's by the spirit. Praise God. Says the Lord of hosts. And what was true then 2500 years ago is still true now. It's just not a physical temple.

Yes. Come on. It It's a spiritual temple. Let's go. Yeah. We got the Holy Ghost. Okay. Uh let me just hear from both of you. What where's God taking Journey Church? What What's a dream? What's a future? Uh if we could just dream big right now and in a year we're going to look back at this podcast and say remember when you said like where where's what's God doing? I know what I want to say, but I want I want you to go first. Well, if you know if you know you it's all good. I already threw it your way. [laughter] Take it. Take it. I don't schematic. I'm just so I'm enjoying the anointing, the presence, the hunger, the flow, the hunger. Not just here as a staff, but the church. Amen. You guys can you guys could even like testify the last four to five months there's a different type of pull and draw just from our people.

And so I go I'm just I'm you know we talk about riding the wave and momentum. Yeah. To me, I I consider myself to be like the bulldog on staff for unity and just I I love I love where we are right now and just making sure that we're continuing to steward the anointing. People are being transformed as far as the schematic dream. Yeah. Cuz I'm a that's part of the reason you and I are in the room together is we're both dreamers. Mhm. Um I I I obviously believe and you and I both know we've we've uh stole Christine Kane's quote, healthy healthy things, but will we go healthy people growing people change people change things. I do believe we're going to grow. Not for growth's sake, but I do believe Central Oregon is being saved.

So I believe schematically it looks like a college. M I do believe that our young people um in this area in particular, they're looking they're not just looking for something in the education realm. They're looking for something that's raw, that's real, that's tangible, that has to be part of. Yeah. So, and they're looking for it to be modeled a thousand%. And so, I would say this because I Paul says you have 10,000 tutors. you don't have hardly any fathers because I believe you have the heart of the father and that's where we're going that there is this this um this heart to father the next generation I don't think we're going to have to try to draw we're going to organically begin to attract and build this college because we're just hungry to build people not build a thing so I believe the college is going to blow up

I think there's something in the way of you reaching the YouTubes. No, [laughter] not like a YouTub like just like reaching the next generation online. I do believe within the next 12 to 18 months. I'm prophesying right now in Jesus' name that our reach uh on YouTube and social media is going to explode for the worth of Jesus to go viral. It's part of what you're carrying in your belly. Um and then obviously the property, you know, I'm excited about this property. There's some things coming. Um, don't don't come on a new journey drive. So, I think one, I'm just so jealous for what God's doing right now. Um, again, it goes back to my kid. My kids are in love with my kids on a pursuit night, just

encountering God hands in the air. So, I'm I'm loving this, but I also with one eye towards the future, you know, I'm stirred for what's coming. Amen. Yeah, totally. Okay. I think, you know, prophesy, same thing to what you were saying about like just enjoying where we are. Yeah. in in a whole sense, but one eye to the future. But even just thinking of like the little glimpses we're getting like our middle schoolers just got back from middle school camp and they hosted their own they all of them were like let's have a pursuit night and they all they go have a pursuit and totally totally apart from the rest of the camp which stirred you know ruffled some feathers but there were other people around that were like you guys are from Journey Church we've heard about you like we've heard about this like and like and giving testimony the next day about it and so of course they rebelled totally and they're like we're We're

following the ghost. And so I'm like that is so fun to just be present in the moment and see. But same same thing you're saying is that I my heart is like I when when I first came here and I and you which what one thing I love about you is your consistency. But that what you repeat every single week there's hope for everyone that central Oregon shall be saved. And I'm like hey if we want to get crazy that's a big dream right there. But it's also totally in alignment with the heart of God, you know. And but it would be and I'm believe I literally believe that in my bones. Amen. I believe it in my bones stand with you. And uh so that's why I I'm like looking at that I'm like this this region and will be um and I believe it. And it's it's one of those things

that anybody could look outside and just be like good luck like or let's check him into an asylum. But I look outside this this region will be unrecognizable in the future. and uh what God is doing here, if we can maintain ourselves in unity, if we can just stay out of control. Yeah. Yeah. [laughter] You know, which is a weird way of putting it, but if we can stay surrendered where the Lord is wanting to move this Y the doors that he's going to open, no man can shut. And and and I see that with the college. I see that with that with our youth, with our young adults, with these these groups that many churches throughout the country are like, we're not seeing anything happening here. like this is a struggle and it's like that is where we're going to see revival. That's where we're going to see awakening. I'm believing that that it's we're like God is just in this formation

stage with all of us and it's like we're we may say it differently but God's like I'm for we're all getting formed like we're I'm forming you because you have no idea how much I'm taking seriously what you're saying that Central or Shelby say that there's hope for everyone that we're leading them on a trans on a journey of transformation in Jesus. So that's what I'm feel I'm I'm pumped. Wow. Well, and I think it's important too, PK, for us to just go back even over the last 6 months, what God has started and initiated in 2020. This has been the best year of my life. I keep telling my wife, I'm like, can you believe this? I mean, like the people I'm texting this year, like I and like friendships being formed and networking, I'm just like, this has been so fun. I mean, I don't I want Smith House worship back here.

I want Martin back here. I I mean even the people that we haven't even had yet that would be coming and the relationship with Montel uh Kristen Jordan text us on Friday and it was like it was for us like the people that God is placing in our lives this year. My mind is like and I go why [clears throat] and I think of bishop's word go there because God's establishing a fountain of righteousness and refreshment and Oregon is on the map. This isn't Texas. This isn't LA. But there is something beautiful about what he's doing right here. And God will use people. He uses relationship. Nobody would ever think it would come from here. Say it. Goes back to the beginning. And I'm telling you, in almost two decades of me, I'm having more fun. Yeah.

Today with you. It's such a joy to be able to serve you and partner with what God is doing right here. So I say in the words of of the bishop, get ready. Get ready. Get ready. Get ready because something's brewing. Yeah. Amen. Well, I I want to just add to both of you cuz I I believe in everything both of you are saying. And I think here's how we'll know it's a movement of God. There will be such a spirit of repentance and righteousness and holiness in this. It can't be fabricated. Amen. You know, it won't be man-made of like amazing preaching or amazing music. It will be people who are weeping of their uh sin, turning to a righteous God and experiencing I think you prophesied it when you preached uh last year. I think

it was last year when you talked about Romans 14 uh is it Romans 14:7 uh the kingdom of God is peace, joy, and righteousness in the Holy Spirit. 14:17. Yeah. Uh Romans 14:17. And I just remember that hitting in such a way that it's like, oh, when the kingdom happens, come on. There's there's signs of righteousness, peace, and joy in the Holy Spirit. Come on. And I I do believe what you're saying, this this movement that is so serious, it impacts an entire region, central Oregon, that it will be explosive in the equipping and the sending out of young people. And I just I'm I'm really excited for it. Yeah. And I think too just put a bow on it is what I love is you look at the people whose lives are completely you talk about repentance metaninoia that their

minds are changed like they they they do a 180 and they're like oh no no like this is and it's not from fear it's out of it's out of reverence and awe and like oh my gosh this is the truth and the goodness of God. What am I doing? I am changing my mind on it's that longing that we were talking about earlier. I I want to repent. I want to change. Yes. Because I want what God has. Amen. And it it Oh, I just I I I feel it in my bones right now. Like because you can see it on people. You can tell when you can if you have eyes to see it, you can recognize and discern when people are serving or a part of something out of fear or obligation versus a legitimate transformation and the renewing of their mind where they're like, "Oh, no. Like that's a word. This is this is who I am. This is actually who I am." Come on.

You know, there was a young woman sitting behind me at church first service on Sunday and all during worship, she was weeping and I'm thinking, "Oh, she's a believer in Jesus. She's moved by God." Or whatever the case might be. And my in my mind, I'm like, "Oh, she's being moved by God." By the way, she was being moved by God. Yes. But at the end of the preaching, I tried to do a really clear altar call, you know, and I did have people raise their hands, and she raised her hand. And I'm thinking, "Oh, she was moved by God for the first time." She she was encountering something emotionally. This wasn't someone like, you know, there if you're familiar with the Holy Spirit, you know, you long for these moves of God. But if you're unfamiliar, it's like, what is this? Why is this song moving me? I'm trying to put into words

what I can't put into words, you know, like it it's she experienced uh that metaninoia, you know, that I want to turn from whatever I was doing to whatever I'm Well, and it's all it's two things, too. It's this it's the worship, but it's also the word of God preached, which is alive, which is it's Jesus. Amen. You know, it it's it's the it's when we to us, we can just stay so natural. But when we're speak we're speaking this, it's like this is the living word and the living word is what? It's who? It's a who. It's not a what. It's Jesus. That's right. And that's that's that's where I feel like we are right now as a church when he's preaching. I mean, I feel like I'm having an encounter. The bishop would always talk about TDJs would always talk about preaching ought to lead people into an encounter. It's not about information. Mhm.

And so I feel like right now you're preaching with one foot in the river and then you know one foot present. Oh, when you went whisper when you went whisper yesterday, bro. Like people are people are encountering God through the word. And so when I say God's moving Yeah. It's not a worship thing. It's [clears throat] all of it. Like people are encountering God in our service in Bend, Oregon in 2026. Let's be unrecognizable next year. I believe that. Metamorphosis. We're going to mark this my first time having you both on the podcast. the beginning of greater things to come. I love that. You know, Carol was supposed to be here today, but you know, God has greater plans sometimes that he he disrupts our plans to say, "I'm going to do a new thing." Yeah. And I believe that he is doing a new thing. Amen. So, I thank you both for your time. I thank you. I love you. So, thank you. And we love you all. So,

thanks for listening, watching, wherever you're you're doing this. And uh I thought we'd close in prayer. Uh Pastor Brandon, would you close us in prayer? Let's just let's just whatever God's done today and maybe pray for our listener to encounter experience what we're talking about. Yeah. Lord, I just thank you for touching each and every person listening to this right now. God, even if it's months later, God, I thank you for that verse in Psalms that says you will perfect that which concerns us in Jesus name. So I thank you for breakthrough, breakthrough, breakthrough over every area, God of need for those watching in Jesus name. God, we just decree restoration of families and homes and finances in Jesus name. And God, [clears throat] we thank you for what you're doing, not just in central Oregon, but across the country, across the globe in Jesus name. And we just

decree, God, that the best is yet to come, God, as we look to you, as we set our eyes and our heart and our affection on you, God. Thank you. Thank you for what you're doing in Jesus name. Thank you, Lord. Amen. Amen. Hey, thanks for joining us this time. We'll see you next time on Confessions of Pastor.